Perfectionism, over studying and overthinking drain and burn me out and then I never draw anything (recently: made 30+ concepts for treehouse contest and now can't even start drawing a damn treehouse)
-
Wow, thanks everyone, lots of replies!!! I'll answer one by one in my art time tomorrow!
-
this one by jake hits it perfectly:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRtV-ugIT0k
Remember, finished, not perfect!
-
Just an addendum for my initial post: I said I am a perfectionist in my work too, but I actually know how to balance "LAUNCH SOMETHING" versus "PERFECT IT LATER".
It is funny because for my current startup I started with a rough working and original prototype, launched quickly, built traction, raised money TWO times and now perfectionism is what is making us grow. But if I were a perfectionist 2 years ago, I would still be just polishing without launching a product. The "Finished, Not Perfect" is what made me fly high.
This is the opposite to what I do with art, as expressed. I don't know how to balance it, I think because of the lack of experience with the subject.
@aska said in Perfectionism, over studying and overthinking drain and burn me out and then I never draw anything (recently: made 30+ concepts for treehouse contest and now can't even start drawing a damn treehouse):
@collector why don't you post all your 30 thumbnails and let the forum choose?
They are mostly scribbles tied each to a set of reference photos
But I liked the idea and I'll try to pack the ones I find best and post here seeking guidance.@DOTTYP said in Perfectionism, over studying and overthinking drain and burn me out and then I never draw anything (recently: made 30+ concepts for treehouse contest and now can't even start drawing a damn treehouse):
You just described me,I also cant get the treehouse finished because it is never good enough! I enter contests and then have so many ideas the contest is over before I even settle on an idea. You sound like you are a perfectionist I am too,I waste so much paper. I look forward to seeing your most amazing shocking Treehouse I now I feel mine will have to be more amazing and shocking than yours lol.I hope this makes sense i am sure other people will have better advice and I need advice too.
But you actually produce art, and very beautiful pieces
Thanks for the tips. Regarding the "most amazing and shocking [item]" that's what my brain tells me haha because I know I am not able to produce that kind of stuff yet.
@Marsha-Kay-Ottum-Owen said in Perfectionism, over studying and overthinking drain and burn me out and then I never draw anything (recently: made 30+ concepts for treehouse contest and now can't even start drawing a damn treehouse):
@collector I'm the opposite. I crank thins out and don't take enough time ot finish them until they are my best work and post them anyway, then I am a bit embarrassed sometimes. It would eb nice o find the happy medium between overkill and rushing through in a frenzy.
Thanks for sharing your side! From everything I read and watched, etc I'm quite sure you are the one that do it correctly
"Better finished than abandoned!".@rcartwright said in Perfectionism, over studying and overthinking drain and burn me out and then I never draw anything (recently: made 30+ concepts for treehouse contest and now can't even start drawing a damn treehouse):
You should consider meditating (no that was not a joke) It helps to create clarity in your thoughts. I also have issues with trying to be perfect in art but you need to remember that you will be more truly critical of your own work than other people. I don't think you can create something truly unique if you worry too much about the "right way". When I start a new concept I brainstorm in writing not drawing the thumbnails are for arranging the story elements I want after my idea is clear. One thing that has helped me a lot was when I watched Jake Parker's video on "needing a product". That helped open my eyes to how I need to think, no matter how many things I need to get done or want to study I always am able to focus back on my product
That's a good tip, thanks. My wife also tells me that all the time, but with my stubbornness (and 14-16h work days, 7 days a week), I never allocate time for mediation.
"I don't think you can create something truly unique if you worry too much about the "right way"" - I completely agree and I HONESTLY don't want that in the end. I just want to... draw. But I always end up burning out without any control (and then the time left is over for the day).
One thing that has helped me a lot was when I watched Jake Parker's video on "needing a product". That helped open my eyes to how I need to think, no matter how many things I need to get done or want to study I always am able to focus back on my product – good point, I'll try to align that in the same way as a lead when I create software products. "Rough WORKING prototype first, polish later".
@mattramsey said in Perfectionism, over studying and overthinking drain and burn me out and then I never draw anything (recently: made 30+ concepts for treehouse contest and now can't even start drawing a damn treehouse):
That would be one obvious idea. If the problem is "is this sketch good enough" then submitting it to fellow artists should help with that.
Do you actually DO studies? or just research and thumbnails/sketches? In other words: do you draw or paint pieces that you take from other artists? And if so: do you take those studies all the way to completion--making sure you get them as close as possible to the piece you are "copying."
If not, that's your problem right there. 100% and period.
You will not be able to make the most fantastic thing ever until you have the technical skills to do so.
That will not come by watching videos alone (even 9,000 hours of them).
If you DO have the skill and your sketches/thumbnails are good then maybe it's just the case that you can't decide because they are ALL AMAZING. If so, putting up on this site will help get some other eyes on them and give you nudges in certain directions.
I just do research and thumbnails and lots of drills (lines, spheres, shapes, coordination, etc), but barely (or never) do studies. Reading your question and answering you shows how obvious the issue is. The problem lies on dealing with overflow of ideas, even for studies, i.e.: "study thousands of eyes first? environments? line balance?, etc".
Oh dear, I can relate! I feel like I've mostly conquered this problem, but sometimes those overwhelming feelings start creeping back. You can definitely find strategies to help. People have already made some really great points. I also agree with the meditation advice.
Have you shared samples of your work here yet? I would really encourage you to start a new thread and show us some of your sketches, studies, thumbnails, and finished pieces. I think if we know where you are as an artist, we can give you more specific advice on how to proceed and possibly conquer these problems you experience.
As ridiculous as it seems, what I wrote in the title is literally 100% real: I never finished any piece, other than drills or scribbles/scribbled thumbnails (and hundreds of clippings from courses and books, but that is not working/drawing :P). In all those 12+ years, I try to dive into art for 3-4 months, buying new courses, getting into drills to warm up again, and then frustration hits me again because of burning out with the choices and then I abandon art once more, without ever drawing anything ("I don't need this thing in my life, waste of time, etc etc").
That's why I created the topic, it is the first time I'm expressing this ridiculous situation I insist in my desire for art every year.
@Christine-Garner said in Perfectionism, over studying and overthinking drain and burn me out and then I never draw anything (recently: made 30+ concepts for treehouse contest and now can't even start drawing a damn treehouse):
I can relate to the endless research thing and perfectionism but I'm taking steps to curb the habit by just doing stuff and not being so precious over things. I think you have to really let go of this perfectionism mindset and just practice with what you have got because that is the only way to beat it and the frustration and anxiety it causes. Either that or do what I do and play Dungeon Keeper 1 and 2 for a bit to relax.
Good point, "just practice with what you have got". I think the contest thing (which I also try every year to get into), is what is overkill for me as well, since I can't even draw a single subject yet.
@K.-W. said in Perfectionism, over studying and overthinking drain and burn me out and then I never draw anything (recently: made 30+ concepts for treehouse contest and now can't even start drawing a damn treehouse):
There are many different techniques you can use to deal with this kind of anxiety (which can sometimes be most helpful to learn from a licensed psychologist, especially if you're hitting a wall you can't seem to get past on your own).
Since you mentioned that, and that I don't have a problem on telling this, I have to mention that I'm bipolar (under treatment for years now). I wonder if anyone else can also relate? This bipolarity "thing" is what made me start and close lots of startups all the time, and just recently I managed to control it (and finally have a growing business). I even created a study group in Brazil called "Bipolar Entrepreneurship".
But since art is so different to what I am used to do my whole life, I still have to find a way to control it as a bipolar. My psychiatrist tells me
that for any subject that I choose, the mindset has to be the same: focus on a single subject (which is easier said than done).But how would you feel if you chose a mediocre tree-house thumbnail, followed through by finishing that illustration, entered the contest, and did not win the contest or receive finalist status? Would you still want to have completed that illustration and entered the contest?
I learn drawing and art for the sake of just wanting do draw anything that comes into my mind (and stuff comes all the time), without any need to make a living of from it or to win anything. BUT when the thing starts to get real, i.e. a contest, challenges or actually finish something, then I go like "all or nothing, win or give up". So replying you here, I can firmly say that I don't care about winning or being a finalist, but in my subconscious, as stupid and absurd as it sounds, I don't like have "crap stuff" published under my name. "You can't delete what you publish online".
When I hold the pencil, I just can't control these thoughts.
I.e. contests drive me insane, because that inner competitive monster inside want all in or nothing. Win or die. That is one of the reasons that I never do any kind of sport or multiplayer games. I just go completely insane. Heck, I played MMORPGs for a long time and I was always a lone wolf, because if I joined other players/groups, I would be the most toxic one ever, putting pressure in everyone else, due to the need to always Win, even if that means ranking top damage, etc. That was getting ridiculous and unhealthy, so I quitted those games (hey, World of Warcraft, talking about you).
But I agree with Aska and Matt that it might help you to get started if you shared your thumbnails. Would you like to get feedback on those from the forums?
They are 30 or so pages of scribbles tied to references, with descriptions in my mind, but I'll see if I assemble and describe them in a easy way to post here, thanks
-
@holleywilliamson said in Perfectionism, over studying and overthinking drain and burn me out and then I never draw anything (recently: made 30+ concepts for treehouse contest and now can't even start drawing a damn treehouse):
Hi you are not the only one that struggles with this. I spent so many years battling perfectionism. I feel like there was so much wasted time that I could have been improving, but I had an image to protect as a child/teenager (being a "great" artist) so I didn't want to try anything unless I knew I could draw it well. As an adult I spent a lot of time studying personalities and figuring out who I am. Coming to accept that perfectionism is a gift as long as you use it for select parts of your life (it doesn't matter if the toilet is cleaned perfectly) and don't impose it on others. I have an analytical mind, I love math, but I love art too, I don't feel satisfied unless I do art. It can help with so many aspects of art, especially illustration.
Thanks for sharing this. I can relate so much to what you said "I feel like there was so much wasted time that I could have been improving".
Also: "Coming to accept that perfectionism is a gift as long as you use it for select parts of your life" - amazing point. As I answered previously, I have complete control of perfectionism in my work, but not in new subjects. I feel that a master (in any subject) is the one that has a balance between starting and applying perfectionism.
This is a great book: Art and Fear
https://www.amazon.com/Art-Fear-Observations-Rewards-Artmaking/dp/0961454733/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1497297292&sr=8-1&keywords=art+and+fearThis is in my wishlist forever. It's about time I buy and read it.
Of course Jake Parker has posted a lot about finished not perfect, I am sure you have listened to that.
Learning to love yourself, your strengths and weaknesses, which often stem from the same thing is so important.
Yes, I watched that, thanks :).
@Kat said in Perfectionism, over studying and overthinking drain and burn me out and then I never draw anything (recently: made 30+ concepts for treehouse contest and now can't even start drawing a damn treehouse):
I bet there are many more people nodding their heads and saying "Me too!" than what reply here. I don't really have an answer because I think we all need to come up with a solution that works for each of us. For me, I just have to force myself to sit down and pick up a pencil. Even if all I draw is boxes or circles, it usually pushes me past the analysis paralysis, and if I relax into it I can sometimes even draw something.
I try that as well ("Even if all I draw is boxes or circles"), but then I start cheating myself saying that is a f* waste of time and that I either do something ultra-amazing or go back to work. I gotta find that balance and transition spot!
@smceccarelli said in Perfectionism, over studying and overthinking drain and burn me out and then I never draw anything (recently: made 30+ concepts for treehouse contest and now can't even start drawing a damn treehouse):
I can only contribute one of my favorite quotes, that helps me nearly daily.
"You need to do 100 pieces that crawl to make one that walks, 100 that walk to make one that flies, 100 that fly to make one that soars".
So if your aim is to do the one that soars (and isn´t that what all artists want?) the way goes through the crawling, walking and flying ones...
Every time I finish an illustration I think "does it crawl, walk or fly?" (It never soars... ;-)). Whatever the answer is, it is a good one, because the counter goes up one in the respective category!That's a good quote
It reminds me of Quantity, Not Quality from naturalist John Laws: http://johnmuirlaws.com/art-and-drawing/quantity-quality (in my case it was easier to read than to do it).“The ceramics teacher announced that he was dividing the class into two groups. All those on the left side of the studio would be graded solely on the quantity of work they produced, all those on the right solely on its quality. His procedure was simple: on the final day of class he would weigh the work of the “quantity” group: fifty pound of pots rated an “A”, forty pounds a “B”, and so on. Those being graded on “quality”, however, needed to produce only one pot – albeit a perfect one – to get an “A”. At grading time, a curious fact emerged: the works of highest quality were all produced by the group being graded for quantity. It seems that while the “quantity” group was busily churning out piles of work – and learning from their mistakes – the “quality” group had sat theorizing about perfection, and in the end had little more to show for their efforts than grandiose theories and a pile of dead clay.”
@Kevin-Longueil said in Perfectionism, over studying and overthinking drain and burn me out and then I never draw anything (recently: made 30+ concepts for treehouse contest and now can't even start drawing a damn treehouse):
@collector Draw the most simple tree house you can imagine and make the best story you can out of it.
I recently had a similar situation where I was in the middle of watching yet another tutorial when I finally shut it off and told myself to just paint - I tried to paint my Dorothy from Wizard of Oz which turned out o.k 'ish but better than expected - if I had finished that video I would not have painted her - I feel like I personally need to work on the basics in most areas like value ,composition and story telling (not to mention everything related to color) so I am content with small victories - I think this might be a good idea for you too - make a small goal like having an interesting lighting scheme or an interesting story and not worry too much about nailing each aspect of the piece - also maybe set a goal of only watching 2 hours a week of tutorials for a while and only watch videos that concern problems you are having on a piece that you are actively working on - just some ideas - i look forward to seeing your work!
Thanks for your point of view and straight tip: "Draw the most simple tree house you can imagine" – I started (and always start) with the most complex subject, otherwise I feel like a loser (yeah, my brain controls me like that). But I completely understand that a loser is the one that never does something.
@Lee-White said in Perfectionism, over studying and overthinking drain and burn me out and then I never draw anything (recently: made 30+ concepts for treehouse contest and now can't even start drawing a damn treehouse):
this one by jake hits it perfectly:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRtV-ugIT0k
Remember, finished, not perfect!
Thanks, I watched that before (love all of the Jake's videos). I even related to that with my businessman side, gotta learn how to do this with art.
-
@rcartwright said in Perfectionism, over studying and overthinking drain and burn me out and then I never draw anything (recently: made 30+ concepts for treehouse contest and now can't even start drawing a damn treehouse):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmeeU8RiDcg
Watch thisThis is an amazing video! Thank you! Going to watch it for the 2nd time now after posting!
EDITED: He has another one on the subject of studying and burning out: "If you are just learning, taking way too much information, constantly, all the time, you are gonna burn out". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xLevnROyu8
-
The problem lies on dealing with overflow of ideas, even for studies, i.e.: "study thousands of eyes first? environments? line balance?, etc".
No. Pick one piece. You mentioned you like Will Terry's stuff. Excellent taste.
Here is your assignment:
Copy this piece. Completely finish it. I would recommend not using the color picker (if you work digitally)--instead try and get a close as possible with just your eye.
Step 2: post a side-by-side on this site and allow your fellow artists to give their input.
-
Here is my suggestion to you, it has to do with how to structure your study time. Think "study and apply". I have no idea what level you are at, because you haven't shared any of your drawings, so it's hard to know what to suggest subject-wise, but start with a subject you want to study and go to just one source for that subject for the moment. For example, if you want to learn about perspective, pick one place to study it at this time.
Start with the first principle they teach you. After you've listened to or read the information for that first principle and have taken notes, do a few very basic practice sketches. If it's one point perspective, draw a horizon line and 5-10 boxes. Maybe you find a cool piece of art that uses one point perspective (do not spend hours looking for this), and you trace all the receding lines of this piece to the horizon. Maybe you do a simplified line drawing of this cool piece of art. This counts as the "study" portion of "study and apply". Still not getting the principle of one point perspective? Now would be an ok time to look at a different source, but be strategic. You are only searching for answers on one point perspective. Don't get ahead of yourself. Now apply the information in a finished piece. Now, does this finished piece mean, fully rendered, full value, full color masterpiece? No. This means something as simple as a line drawing of a hallway with doors and windows in perspective. Maybe you do another "finished piece" for this particular subject, maybe you don't. This might take up your whole study session of 1-3 hours. This might take as little as 15 minutes, depending on how long the lecture is or how easily it comes to you.
Move on to the next principle, say 2 point perspective. Listen or read the principles of 2 point perspective. Do a few sketches of boxes in 2 point (study).Then "apply" by doing a very simple house or city scene without much detail.
After you've gone through a good amount of the principles from your source material, (2 point perspective, drawing circles in perspective, measuring distances, scaling things in perspective, etc) do a larger more detailed piece. Maybe you do another city scene but add more details like windows and doors, maybe a few trees. Maybe you draw from life. Look at your couch and draw your couch using the details from life, but applying the principles you've learned in perspective.
You can have a few subjects going at a time, but separate them in your sessions at first.
Remember that you can always come back to a subject. Often times it is just not possible to absorb all the information at one time. You need a rest period from the subject matter and you will pick up things the next time around.
Here are examples from my own perspective study. Here are some of the copies I made. Some of these may seem complex, but I also did just basic boxes in perspective that I didn't bother to save. I would consider this the study part of "study and apply"
Here are examples of my "apply" or "finished pieces". They could also be considered just studies, but they are really applying the principles learned in a more engaged way that helps the material stick better.
Again, not sure where you are as far as skills go. But a good place to start, at least here at svs would be, Drawing Fundamentals, How to Draw Everything, Visualizing Drawing in Perspective, and Mastering Perspective. Start somewhere. Pick one. Do any of the exercises recommended or included in the course. Start with one and practice before you move on to something else. I would focus on some fundamentals before pressuring yourself to compose a personal piece. Think of your art right now as study. It makes it less personal.
Website: www.tessawrathall.com
Instagram: www.instagram.com/tessawrathall_art/
-
@TessW I think that is great advice.
-
Also, as you study- if you post those in the forum, we can help focus you if you need it. If you aren't ready for critique. Just say, "no critiques please". But posting them here will help others see where you are at and you can get tailor-made recommendations for study exercises or maybe where you should be spending your time.
-
You may want to check out tomorrow's third thursday. Here: https://www.svslearn.com/3rd-thursdays-1/2017/5/30/june-2017-battling-creative-block it's a free webinar
-
@mattramsey I'll definitely try this and post later, thanks!
@TessW thanks for the time you put in preparing these instructions. Loved the way you approached the "apply" part as creating an actual drawing while focused on that single study subject and not just drawing the drills/analytical studies as I've been doing forever.
I'll take some time to put into practice what @mattramsey and @TessW said and post back here once I got something.
@Ben-Migliore said in Perfectionism, over studying and overthinking drain and burn me out and then I never draw anything (recently: made 30+ concepts for treehouse contest and now can't even start drawing a damn treehouse):
You may want to check out tomorrow's third thursday. Here: https://www.svslearn.com/3rd-thursdays-1/2017/5/30/june-2017-battling-creative-block it's a free webinar
Cool! Just registered! Hope to meet you live over there later today.
-
@collector Thank you Collector I do finish pieces now ,but only a few years ago I never got anything finished ,I need to learn a lot about composition,but I am slowly getting there. Also I would consider most of my pieces unfinished even when posted ,always WIP. Maybe you are just not ready/comfortable to put it all altogether it a fully finished image yet,I have not seen your work so I dont know.perhaps if you start with a portrait of family or pet that is quite small it will be easy to finish and you will feel you have something to show for all your studies.
-
@aska This is a really good video!!
-
@mattramsey said in Perfectionism, over studying and overthinking drain and burn me out and then I never draw anything (recently: made 30+ concepts for treehouse contest and now can't even start drawing a damn treehouse):
The problem lies on dealing with overflow of ideas, even for studies, i.e.: "study thousands of eyes first? environments? line balance?, etc".
No. Pick one piece. You mentioned you like Will Terry's stuff. Excellent taste.
Here is your assignment:
Copy this piece. Completely finish it. I would recommend not using the color picker (if you work digitally)--instead try and get a close as possible with just your eye.
Step 2: post a side-by-side on this site and allow your fellow artists to give their input.This took me 8 tries, around 1h (40~60min) each the past days, and this is the best one (I like to first place proportions and main shapes with a non-photo blue pencil). But I find it insane that it took me that amount of time to COPY an EXTREMELY simple drawing like that, but at least I can say it was very pleasing to do.
Now I'll scan and try to color in Photoshop. In Photoshop I'll also fix some of the mistakes in the line art and I still see mistakes in the crow.
-
@collector Thanks for sharing! So glad you had fun doing it. Can't wait to see the color applied.
-
you posted a drawing! YEY!
-
@collector Perfect---you're doing it man!
I think this tells us a lot and will help everyone help you. In some sense you are right: it is a "simple" drawing. Therefore, 8 tries at almost an hour each simply tells me that you are still solidly in the practice stage--which, obviously, is where everyone starts!
The good news is that if you continue doing things like this you will move out of the practice stage and into the next.
The GREAT news is that in order to do that you simply have to keep drawing things--which is great because we love doing art right?
Feel free to do a color version but honestly, if it's overwhelming for you then at this point I'd say stick to working on studying drawings.
Will Terry has a ton more "reference" material out there on the web and, of course, there are others.
Maybe start a sketch thread and post your studies with the original on one side and your copy on the other. Do a bunch of those. Like a lot.
And then a few more. Everyone is different but it'd be good to get it down to where you could sketch that frog in...I don't know...5 - 10 min*?
*I'd like to hear from others here if that's a reasonable time for that piece of art. Obviously, if you are coming up with that type of drawing from your head it might take a lot longer. Sometimes I think my sketch phase is as long as my painting phase--I'm constantly erasing and starting over. I can spend hours on an initial sketch. Again, that's when I'm creating the scene/character from scratch.
-
Hi @collector, I was showing my sister this forum earlier and she read your post. She exclaimed: "that's me! I have the same problem!". (regarding the never ending collecting thing).
I've been going though similar thing about not learning Blender 3D for ages due to fear about it (it will be hard, I don't have the time, what's the point, my work will be horrible etc....), but in the past few days I forced myself to just get started with it just to see what happens without the pressure of thinking I have to be an expert before I even begin (which is impossible anyway), and I surprised myself by getting a lot further with it than I thought I would and breaking the initial fear of it all which is encouraging me to keep going with it. I think this post helped me realize I had the same issues to work out.
So I know how frustrating it is to begin learning something completely new and I'm glad that you had a go at drawing something, it's definitely a great start.
I watched this video today and I thought it might help you as well:
The 7 Habits of Highly Effective Artists
https://youtu.be/vM39qhXle4g -
Overthinking is detrimental to growth and productivity. Give yourself a time limit to research/find reference and be damn strict about it. You're just stalling with all this faffing around, and you know it. It's a hamster wheel, you're doing a lot but you're not going anywhere so do what's in your power to get off it!
Sorry if that sounded harsh, but I do relate to this and it's exactly what I've said to myself. My perspective now is to look at personal projects as "work" VS "art". Set deadlines, deadlines, DEADLINES. Make them for yourself. Tell your friends or art buddies online, get someone to check in on you if they can. You don't have to be perfect, and you better get it into your head that you never will be. Quit stalling, be brave and decide on something, then give it your all. You may find that once you do this for a while, you'll learn to like what you produce instead of wanting it to be the bestest, most magical, most amazing thing you've ever done or that anyone will ever do. Stop trying to compete and do it for the sheer enjoyment.
Of course I'm still practising all this myself, but I'm a hell of a lot more productive these days than I used to be. I finish more "singular" pieces, even if they lack substance and are not that great. I post them and move on. When I can wrap my head around all this and finish one of the animation projects I've had in the works for the past SEVEN years, then I'll truly feel like I've accomplished something, til then, taking small comforts in finishing little things here and there.
So I reiterate, stop stalling with all the knowledge and the learning, and apply it... do something, ANYTHING. Then when you've finished that, do it again. And again. And again! Soon you'll find all that knowledge you've gathered will come in handy. You can do this. Goooo!
-
@smceccarelli taking that quote and getting it tattooed on my forehead... heh
My mantra is often, "Better done than perfect."
