Upwork is ****** up

Michael Angelo Go

Well @NessIllustration what do you have to say to this?

davidhohn

@Michael-Angelo-Go Can you clarify why you mention 22 pages in your reply?

I recognize that you mentioned this page number in your original post and that it was the number of pages in the project you were contacted about. It was that detail which indicated to me that the creator of this UpWork project doesn't really know what they are doing.

As you continue into your career you'll find that this is an unusual number of pages for a picture book. The standard is 32 pages (two signatures of 16 pages each). The page count for a picture book will typically increase or decrease by 16 pages. In some cases by 8 pages, and never less that 4 pages. Just as an FYI, if you have a go at building a mock up book you'll find that its impossible to fold pages to create a 22 page book.

So as you continue forward just keep in mind that 32 pages is industry standard. Any deviation (and it is possible) from that should be clarified early on in the project to make sure that it is physically viable.

NessIllustration

@davidhohn @Michael-Angelo-Go I've mostly done 24-page books myself. 22 pages does not make sense unless this is a digital only book...

Michael Angelo Go

@NessIllustration It's 22 pages inside, plus front and cover. Should it be 24 pages plus front and cover?

NessIllustration

@Michael-Angelo-Go Full copyright transfer is unnecessary and expensive just for distributing a picture book. Exactly how expensive depends on what the illustrator says, they have to account for all potential loss of revenue, but only they can determine what they value it at. There's no specifics for art prices. I've heard of full copyright transfer prices all the way to 6 figures, but as David Horn says that's usually a preventative price. As in "I want to retain my copyrights so I'll say the full transfer costs 100k so they stop asking me and discuss other licensing options". But no, 6 figures is not the usual going rate for even a full copyright transfer. But since I have yet to see a publisher willing to fork any more than a couple thousand dollars, it becomes a non-issue because I refuse to transfer my copyrights for this little.

NessIllustration

@Michael-Angelo-Go No we're talking about inside pages. To bind inside pages to the spine, they are folded and grouped together into what's called "signatures" before being sewn (or glued) into the spine. The bare minimum amount of pages created from this process is 4 pages - one large sheet folded in half creates a little booklet of 4 pages ("cover", inside 1 and 2, and "back cover"). It is impossible to arrive at a final number of 22 in a printed book using normal binding methods. My guess is the author wrote their book, it turned out 22 pages, then they didn't do any research into printing and don't realize this is impossible.

davidhohn

@NessIllustration A 24 page book is physically possible (a pagecount divisible by 4)
but not something that I've often come across. Out of curiosity can I ask what publishers you are working with that create 24 page projects? Are these "trade picture books", that is hardcovers with separate endpages, dust jackets and the like? Or are they educational projects? (designed for use in schools and other learning environments)

NessIllustration

@davidhohn Because of my vector style, my work is considered too young for the traditional 32-page picture book. I do younger markets, 0-6 years old. My most recent book was a 24-page soft cover with Sourcebooks. Other times I do board books but those don't really apply to this conversation because the binding is completely different and they can do weird amounts of pages if they wish

davidhohn

@NessIllustration Right! And if you are doing a softcover likely it is perfect-bound right? Perfect binding does allow for the inclusion of 2 pages at a time. Same with board books as you mentioned.

davidhohn

@Michael-Angelo-Go As you can see there are variations in how books are put together. But it's important to know the industry standards so that when you are presented with a project that deviates from the "standard" you can use the knowledge to determine if you are potentially working with a viable project. Especially with a site like UpWork which attracts inexperienced clients looking for cheap freelancers.

In the case of your OP a 22 page picture book would be an immediate red flag. Not that a pg count like that would be a deal breaker (see my conversation with @NessIllustration above), just that it is outside the norm and I'd want to know how the book was going to be constructed. This would be important because say you started the project and 3/4 of the way thought the client discovered "Hey, turns out you CANT make a 22 page book!"

The chances the client simply cancels the project are quite high and you are out all the time and money you've invested.

NessIllustration

@davidhohn Uhmm I'd have to check but I don't think they are perfect bound. I believe the minimum number of pages to allow for perfect binding is higher than 24.

davidhohn

@NessIllustration Fair enough. I'd simply be surprised if a soft cover book was stitched. If they sent you illustrator copies should be easy enough to check.

NessIllustration

@davidhohn I haven't yet received my author copies for that one (doesn't come out until the Spring), but I went to check my older 24 page books and they do actually look perfect bound! It's just sheets folded once and glued into the spine, right?

davidhohn

@NessIllustration Probably, yeah. I know that you can perfect bind single pages together into a book but they are really delicate.

I was just looking at some the paperback/softcover picture books in my library. These are all paperback versions of books that started out as trade picture books so they are 32 pages + endpapers long. To me they look like two signatures (each signature probably stitched together) that have been glued (perfect bound) to the thicker paper that makes up the cover.

So I bet there are a variety of different ways each publisher, and their preferred printer, put the books together.

NessIllustration

@davidhohn Still, you are right that 22 pages is very unlikely. Unless he meant 22 illustrated pages and he plans to add additional blank pages, or credit pages, or something.

Michael Angelo Go

@NessIllustration yeah I have no clue about that, they didn't elaborate any further than that.

Also what are other things I should watch out for when it comes to newcoming authors? Like CMYK printing?

davidhohn

@Michael-Angelo-Go All printing is CMYK printing. No need to worry about that.

Things to watch out for (not deal-breakers exactly, but definite warning signs):

If the author is both the editor and art director
Requests to do sample pieces without payment.
Situations in which the author says any variation on the following phrase: "This character is based on my mom/dad/grandmother/dog/highschoolboyfriend, soooooo can you make it look like them?"

Michael Angelo Go

@davidhohn Ooh this was for a book about a dog character based on their own actual dog.

NessIllustration

@Michael-Angelo-Go Oh goodie. Will Terry explained very well on his Youtube channel why this is terrible. He says that it's not something that improves the book for the readers (who don't even know the dog/daughter/grandma) so it's purely for the author's personal pleasure, they are not thinking objectively about what a book needs to be successful and they are not prioritizing the right things. And then because they intimately know that dog/daughter/grandma in real life, they are usually extremely picky and a pain in the ass about it and it leads to countless tweaks (My grandma has slightly bigger eyebrows. She looks a tad too cheerful, in real life she didn't smile that wide. She wouldn't wear this daffodil pattern shirt, she didn't like daffodils.) This adds a lot of work to the project, without adding any value for the readers who don't give a damn about this stuff.

davidhohn

Ooh this was for a book about a dog character based on their own actual dog.

@Michael-Angelo-Go ^OF COURSE it was . . .^
Pretty sure you dodged a bullet there.

But starting out there's no way to know this stuff -- unless you go through it yourself (never fun) -- or ask people who have already made the mistake (sooo much better for you, and the mistake-er gets to feel like they are being helpful. A win-win!)