Need to vent a bit!
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@Annabishop You're absolutely right! There's a strong mindset problem that leads us artists to being afraid to stand up for ourselves. And it's not our fault, it's society's message that we're lucky to do this, we're lucky to have the work, we shouldn't complain. It creates this really terrible power imbalance where we artists just feel so indebted to our clients like they're giving us the moon and we need to be thankful. In reality of course, it's a simple business transaction where BOTH parties get something. If a client is paying $1000 for illustrations, it's because they're able to turn around and make more than that in profits selling their product. We needn't act like they're doing us a favor by making money with our intellectual property! It doesn't mean let's act like an entitled queen, but we really needn't lick their boots and take the consequences for their mistakes. I know what you mean about the fear of being impolite - I'm Canadian! But being polite is not the same thing as being a doormat! We can be professional AND firm all at once
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@Annabishop said in Need to vent a bit!:
I've been told 'just take every job when you're starting out even if it's low paid/crappy, it will lead to more'.
The saying should be "it will lead to more... of the same"
Sure it's a good idea to take the first couple projects your agent sends you so that they know you're professional and can get the job done (as Braden brilliantly explained) and when you're just getting started and have nothing in your portfolio at all it can help jumpstart things and look more professional to take a couple gigs regardless of pay to fill up your projects page and get some testimonials... But 1-2 gigs, not 10-12! We need to quickly start looking for projects that offer a livable wage after that, otherwise we stick ourselves in a terrible loop of only working at the bottom of the ladder. We have to get climbing sooner rather than later! And that means saying no to more gigs and that can be scary, but the beauty part is that if the gig is paid 2x better, then you only need half as many gigs like that to pay your billsvanessastoilova.com
instagram.com/vanessa.stoilova/Check out my Youtube channel for tips on how to start your career in illustration! www.youtube.com/c/ArtBusinesswithNess
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@Braden-Hallett Thank you for your response Braden!
The fear of coming across like a prima-donna is so real lol. I can see now I'm much more in danger of swinging the other way and being a total doormat.I can see it really makes sense from the agency's perspective to start out new artists on the smaller jobs. This is why I've felt the need to take some of these badly paid jobs because I'm thinking of it as an opportunity to prove myself as reliable and easy to work with. I think I'm hitting my 'crappy job' limit though.
You're so right, I need to practice saying "no thanks" and not feeling guilty about it...The 'Flapping butt-hole' Ska band conjures such a brilliant mental image hahah
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@NessIllustration
"We have to get climbing sooner rather than later! And that means saying no to more gigs and that can be scary, but the beauty part is that if the gig is paid 2x better, then you only need half as many gigs like that to pay your bills"When you say it like this is makes so much sense. I'm feeling a lot clearer about what I need to do moving forward. Thank you so much Ness!
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@Annabishop Anytime!
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@Annabishop said in Need to vent a bit!:
You're so right, I need to practice saying "no thanks" and not feeling guilty about it
I just said no to a job offer today actually!
I wrote back this:
"Hi (insert agent name)!
Thanks very much for keeping me in mind for this project, but I think I'll have to pass on this one.
Thanks though!
B."
That's allllllll you need to do. No explanation, no justification, just a "no thank you"
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@Annabishop @Braden-Hallett @NessIllustration This was such a great discussion, all of you! Iām nowhere near this stage of my career yet, but am glad to have read your advice before I found myself in this situation. Thank you all!
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@Braden-Hallett that last bit had me crying
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@cianamacaroni I'm really glad you found this discussion useful! @NessIllustration and @Braden-Hallett are full of pearls of wisdom! I felt a little bit embarrassed posting about this to be honest but then I realised it's good to have these conversations out in the open where it can (hopefully) benefit others. It seems like there is a huge amount of resources focused on how to get an agent but not so much about the next stage.
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@Annabishop There's also not too many really visible discussions about how, really, having an agent is not the end all be all. Like, I SUCK at marketing and networking, and so paying an agent a percentage juuuuuuuuuuuuust edges out being on my own. This stage, likewise, takes lots and lots of work, lol.
I'm actually planning on doing a self-marketing blast (several of them) and then track what jobs come from where to see how effective the agency actually is.
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@Braden-Hallett
I just got a job offer I'm planning to decline (low pay) so I may use a variation on this template - thanks! I'm feeling a little bit conflicted on the 'no explanation, no justification' thing though. Personally, I agree with you that we shouldn't have to justify our reasons if we don't want to. However when I spoke to my agent about declining jobs she said this: 'taking on projects is totally up to you, as long as you explain to the agent the reason why you can't take it on we're understanding'. I'm wondering if it's helpful for them to know the reason especially when it concerns low pay or tight deadlines. Perhaps they might feed this back to their clients if enough illustrators mention it. It could create some positive change? That might be me being overly naive and optimistic though. -
@Annabishop You can absolutely say "the budget isn't quite right for me" or "I wouldn't be able to make that deadline work".
Be open and communicative with your agent! As much as they want that sweet sweet moolah at the end of the day they're supposed to be on your team!
It's just this last time for me I didn't feel the need to
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@Braden-Hallett I SUCK at marketing and networking too! I've been building a mailing list (extremely slowly) but have yet to really go for it with a self-marketing blast. Your plan for tracking where the jobs come from is definitely a good idea!
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@Braden-Hallett said in Need to vent a bit!:
@Annabishop You can absolutely say "the budget isn't quite right for me" or "I wouldn't be able to make that deadline work".
Be open and communicative with your agent! As much as they want that sweet sweet moolah at the end of the day they're supposed to be on your team!
It's just this last time for me I didn't feel the need to
I hear ya, thank you
I'm definitely overthinking this haha. -
@Annabishop Marketing like anything else requires learning and practicing
Artists are really good at learning art, but we rarely put the same dedication into learning how to sell our services... which is a shame, because that's where most of us fail We can't be good at something if we've never learned it, that's only natural. I feel like saying things such as "I suck at marketing" isn't helpful and mentally, it can affect how we see ourselves. "I'm someone who's just not good at marketing" as if it's part of who we are, and there's nothing about that we can change. Thinking of it instead as "I haven't learned marketing yet" is more helpful because it's not self-depreciative, it's not related to your identity... it simply states you haven't yet developed your skills in this area and pushes you to think about your next steps. What can you do to learn marketing? vanessastoilova.com
instagram.com/vanessa.stoilova/Check out my Youtube channel for tips on how to start your career in illustration! www.youtube.com/c/ArtBusinesswithNess
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@NessIllustration or even what I tell my students..."I'm still learning marketing". Mindset definitely helps!
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@NessIllustration I couldn't agree more Ness! I phrased it like that in response to Braden's comment. I suppose what I really mean is - 'historically I haven't marketed myself effectively' I don't really believe that means I'm always doomed to 'suck' at it. Even compared to this time last year I know 100x more about marketing thanks to doing some more research and taking online classes. Your youtube channel is also a great resource
