New possible CB client

bharris

@DanetteDraws I agree with it being a possible red flag, but like you said benefit of the doubt. Do you know a good place to look through different contracts? Thanks for your input!

Chip Valecek

I agree with @Lynn-Larson if you are going to work with him you will need some sort of contract that states if the edits are more then two rounds it will cost extra. I worked with someone who was self publishing and had all these ideas of how everything should be and how it should look. I tried to give my advice but it became a nightmare. I was very excited that it was going to be my first childrens book. I gave a price and she accepted it. In the end I was not happy with the illustrations I did, the story was not well written. There was way more back and forth and changes that I wanted to do and I explained to her that it was going to start to cost more if she keeps changing her mind on pages. I was sent multiple drafts of the story and when I would work on one i was later told it was the wrong draft. In the end I was paid and I know now if I was to work with her again the price will be much more then the first time.

Will actually has a video on how to price the project. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6xrt5ko1uw it may be helpful for you as it was for me.

Best of luck and I look forward to hearing how it goes!

Naroth Kean

@bharris I can tell that his books can be a bit expensive to print especially on hardcover (not talking about print on demand like Createspace which they don't offer hardcover). My self-publish book with around 36 pages on CreateSpace is set to a minimum prize at 11 dollar each print with paperback, and I think it's kind of expensive with paperback, size and color matter as well. Of course when CreateSpace put it on amazon they also lower the price in a dollars or so to make it looks good for whatever market reason. My book is on hold because of that reason and I might have to redo some illustration and consider everything (that for him to consider and I think he might have done some research as well)

He might sounds like a difficult client but we never know till you really talk to him, and see for yourself why those previous illustrators he had worked with did not work. I wish you the best of luck! Let us know!

bharris

@katrinafowler I will be reading the story beforehand, but is it better to come to a meeting with my ideas or wait and get a sense of what he is looking for? I thought I would give him the option of more spot illustrations to keep his costs a little lower. I guess I don't know what to quote him without knowing how in depth he wants this to be....

Sorry you haven't heard from your author, but it sounds like the experience was good.

bharris

@Lynn-Larson Thanks for your feedback. You're right, even though being new makes me feel like I ought to be flexible, I should know what I'm not willing to compromise on.

I will defiantly let you know!

Lee White

I highly recommend avoiding self publishing authors. They rarely work out for a number of reasons.

They aren't trained as an art director and have no idea how to work with an artist
They pay way below industry rates in exchange for "more money once it's selling"
The stories haven't been vetted and typically aren't professional quality
They don't understand how the business works and have little to no plan of distribution
They don't understand all the costs involved. More on that:

Typically there are quite a few parts to being a self published author. The EASY part is getting the book made. The hard part is selling the book. This requires an actual business and marketing plan. Most authors tend to over value their work and think as long as it gets made, it will do well (cause, you know, it's awesome!). But, it doesn't typically work that way. Most self publishing projects rarely see the light of day, and the ones that do die on the vine due to no plan for distribution.

So IF you must work with an author. Demand a LARGE upfront payment, royalties on the back end, and ask to see the business plan for sales and distribution.

If you are wondering what a "large upfront payment" (advance) would be, I'd start here:

If you, the artist, are unpublished: $7500-$12000
If you have 1- 5 books: $12,000-$20,000
If you have over 5 books: $25,000+

Hope that helps. : )

mattramsey

@bharris said:

he's been through several people attempting to illustrate his book, but none have worked out

"My book is pretty long, maybe up to 40 or so illustrations ... I think it needs a lot of detail and is a bit complex,

Run.

Run screaming.

Seriously though, so many red flags. He has no idea even the basics of processes involved in publishing a children's book (I'm not considering this a moral failing on his part but that doesn't mean you want to sink with him). There are many, many, MANY opportunities to work with self-publishing artists--probably most are bad but if that is how you want to get your feet wet then I'd try going with someone else.

That said...

Maybe you could educate him and he'll revise his (completely awesome?) story to a more standard 32 page spread and maybe he will be really reasonable to work with and end up selling millions. But, like @lee-white suggested: get a lot of money up front. And: get. a. contract.

Good luck!

Charlie Eve Ryan

I stay clear of self-pub authors too. Typically not worth the time, money or headache.

Every party I go to there is almost always someone who wants me to illustrate their book (that is "not written yet" or it is a "modern day classic") because you know "writing children's books is so easy" and they want to team up with me and have access to my "contacts in the biz."

I don't even know what to say to that except thank you, but I'm still building my few "contacts" and value them while trying to get my own work published, publishers want to pick their own illustrator for each project and if you want to write ... great, join SCBWI and learn more.

@Lee-White or @Will-Terry: How do you guys handle these conversations/request without losing your mind and offending anyone.

Sarah LuAnn

Honestly, the few times anyone has been really persistent about wanting me to illustrate a book for them, I quote them a price I think is fair and they just shut up. (I'm in the fortunate position of NOT needing to get any work I can at any price, and can turn down bad projects guilt-free, but I can see how doing that would be hard for others in a more difficult situation.) Most self publishing people don't really have any concept of how much time they are asking you to invest in their project and therefore aren't ready to give you a half decent fee.

natiwata

@Lee-White Great advice! I second all of this. I have not worked on nearly as many published books as Lee, but have done a couple and done a lot of freelance work. I'd also recommend not being shy about the price point you are comfortable working for (I usually state a range, or hourly if it's that type of job). Anyone serious about paying you fairly for your work won't be scared off by this, and if they are it's usually for the better.

mag

I've had a client like this one once. It was a great experience... However - never again! He didn't know much about the business, but also was a really stubborn person. It turned out into a nightmare project, as shinji said. I'm kinda glad for the experience, because now I know - do not take the job, if you're not sure about the client.
However, the meeting could help a bunch.

Lee White

Couple of answers to questions comments:

I don't generally recommend ever giving an hourly fee. The reason for this is that you are actually penalized as you get better (unless your rate dramatically increases). For example, when I graduated from school, it took me about 3-4 days to finish an illustration. It takes me about 4 hours now. So I would actually make less now (even with a big rate) than I did 10 years ago.
The way to answer these people is to be very nice. Don't ever be snappy towards any of them. Just state everything as facts. It's one of the areas I go into in the business class. Because we are so intertwined with art, the business side of things seems like it's harder than it actually is. If you had a product (for example: a new energy drink) and someone wanted to sell that energy drink, you would just say "it costs $x dollars to buy the product, etc". If the store didn't like it, it would be no big deal. They do that kind of interaction daily. But for artists it becomes "what if they think I'm mean" or "arrogant" or whatever. Just be business like and courteous.

Charlie Eve Ryan

@Lee-White It does feel like you are crushing their dream the way they look at you when you politely say thanks, but no and lead them in a different direction. I keep it together and try to encourage SCBWI etc but it is funny and frustrating the public perception of this field. That somehow it is easy. And you absolutely right, keep it business- like because once they start hearing numbers and fees they usually quickly lose interest. I never snap because you never know where one contact may lead and I'm not out to hurt people's feelings or discourage their dream. Looking forward to your business class, it could not come at a better time for me!

Will Terry

Most of it has been said already...I created this video to send to them...then realized it was overkill and it actually probably offends more than helps...

Right now I just say:

"I'm very flattered that you would think of me for your book. Right now I'm only working with large publishers for many reasons. I'm booked for the next few years (lie - but also truthful as my own projects are keeping me more than busy) right now and hope to continue this trend. Good luck with your book!

Cheers,
Will

If they have the nerve to try to convince me I send them the video I made...I never hear after that but often find another "dislike" on the video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rdUKx17IF8

Lee White

@Will-Terry I can't wait to watch this!!

mag

@Will-Terry That's a really nice and polite response.
I found the video very helpful. I wouldn't probably send it to someone, but it was good for me to hear all that stuff.

Lee White

great video will!

Charlie Eve Ryan

Very classy and honest, informed response, @Will-Terry! Great job! I don't see how anyone could be offended by it.

bharris

@Chip-Valecek That sounds awful, and I'd prefer never to get into that situation... sometimes we just don't know. That's why having this forum and these teachers is sooo wonderful! I've watched this so many times! haha!

@Naroth-Kean I do have one book witha very small publisher (not my own) and she is doing the print on demand and it's much the same. I do plan to still go talk to him, who knows he may be loaded and I'd be happy with a large upfront fee! JK lol.

bharris

@Lee-White All those sound very right, but I'm still so new in this industry I'm not sure who I'm looking to work with if not locals that contact me. I'm not putting myself out there to the larger market yet feeling unready to. In the mean time I thought it would make sense to take on lower jobs for the sake of having more projects, but there are so many horror stories!

All published artists are shaking your heads saying "I remember that mistake in my career..."

I do like the large upfront fee, I wouldn't take a job like this if it's not worth my time so thank you for the range! I'm so looking forward to the business class!