Clients wanting more "bang for their buck".

Nyrryl Cadiz

@Patricia-Dishmon Yeah, I don't think there's any changing clients on Upwork and similar sites. they're terrible. Have you tried facebook children's book groups. in my experience, they're a bit better than clients on upwork at least.

Also, you make great work! I'm surprised you're not agented yet. Have you submitted to agents?

Melissa_Bailey

@Patricia-Dishmon oh I can so relate!

Most of my client work also comes from self-publishers. In the past, I worked almost exclusively on Elance/Upwork, but I’ve gotten away from that. Now most of my work comes from repeat clients, referrals, or SCBWI’s Illustrators Gallery.

Yeah, scope creep and wanting more “bang for their buck” is super common with self-publishers. One of the biggest reasons they’re self-publishing is because they want the control of creating exactly the book they were envisioning. That’s great, but that mentality can also lead to being super picky.

Here are a few things I do to try to counteract that and keep the experience positive for my client and me:

If I get the feeling that this will be a picky client, I’ll either politely decline or quote them a higher rate. If I need the work, at least I’ll be amply compensated for the extra time the job will take, and the added frustration.
Communicate clearly and give plenty of visuals. When I quote a job now, I don’t just say “spot illustration” or “full page” — I explain what that includes (how many characters, items, background/no background, etc.) and supply a visual of what that kind of illustration looks like.
Be very specific in the job proposal and contract. Specify how many revisions of a sketch are included in the price, and if more revisions are required, how much each revision will cost. Specify if you offer any revisions on finished illustrations, and if you do, how many. Specify the number and type of illustration, including number of characters, complexity, and background/no background. Getting everything down in writing is SO helpful — if scope creep happens or the client is getting picky and requesting a lot of unnecessary revisions, all you have to say is, “I’ll be happy to make that change for you, but we’ve gone through 3 revisions, so per the contract, this next revision will be an additional $25.” (Or whatever’s in the contract.) Suddenly, most clients will be happy with the sketch!
If scope creep starts to happen, refer back to the contract. “We agreed to simple spreads with no background, which is what the price is based on. If you would like this spread to have a background, I’ll be happy to do that, but we will need to adjust the agreement and the price. It will cost an additional $100.” (Or whatever your price schedule is.) You’re being polite and showing that you’re willing to work with the author, but if they want to add to the original agreement, your time is valuable and needs to be compensated. Most clients, even picky ones, will respond positively, since you’re leaving the decision up to them. Most will suddenly be happy to stick to the original agreement; some will be wiling to shell out a little more to get the book they’re envisioning.
Put pieces in your portfolio that are representative of the work you want to do, your preferred style. If you prefer simple illustrations with minimal to no background, put those types of illustrations in your portfolio. Don’t include client work that is full of detail or backgrounds, because that’s the type of work you’ll keep getting. Yes, some clients might come to you and request more detailed illustrations, but most will expect illustrations from you that look like the work in your portfolio. That means that your portfolio might include more personal pieces than client work. Some Upwork jobs pay the bills; they’re not necessarily portfolio worthy.
Read the manuscript before signing a contract or starting any work. This is non-negotiable for me. If a client doesn’t want to share their story, I wish them well and move on. Reading the manuscript is the only way to see if this is a job I really want to do. Do I connect with the story? Is there any objectionable content? (You’d be surprised at some of the stories I’ve been given to read on Upwork!) Does the story match the client’s job description? Will it take more work than anticipated? How many characters are in the story and what kinds of settings will need to be illustrated? If the client says they want simple illustrations but there are 10 characters in a 32 page book, these will not be simple illustrations! Sometimes their definition of “simple” differs from mine.

Sorry! This got super wordy. It’s late where I live, and I rambled on. Hope you found something in this tome helpful!

@Patricia-Dishmon Wow @Melissa_Bailey covered a lot of amazing ground. Both of you have years more of commercial illustration experience than me (0 right now lol), so I might not be very qualified to comment.

But I did use to be a (software) consultant, and other than just delivering the work (software), half or possibly more than half of the job was actually in educating the client about what they actually need vs what they thought they wanted. I feel like as an illustrator servicing clients who may not be very familiar at all with the illustration process, one will probably have to invest some time into educating the client as well, show how much time and energy goes into the work and why you deserve to be paid the amount you are asking for (scope creep is not unique to illustration. It happens ALOT in the software world as well and can be just as annoying; and oftentimes it usually arises from client's ignorance/lack of info/lack of proper understanding of business priorities).

I did get someone ask me whether I was willing to work on a book on them before. I turned them down because from the way the inquiry was made (super vague) I could tell this person was kind of a newbie author, and I was already working on my own books which I could get funding for so it wasn't an attractive proposition. Still, I took the time to respond with an email detailing what additional information I (or any other illustrator) would probably look for from them before they'd be willing to collaborate (which included looking at their manuscript first; I even said I'd be willing to sign an NDA to do so XD), and linked them to one of Will Terry's videos (how to hire an illustrator for a children's book).

I feel like if we have better educated clients, we will have clients who better appreciate an illustrators' work and pay appropriately. Obviously that's a bit idealistic but one can try

Griffin McPherson

@JQ this is why I personally feel that self-published authors aren’t worth the time. Granted, I don’t have a ton of experience but from the few times I’ve been approached and stories I’ve heard from other’s, they won’t be able to pay you what you deserve, they will be more challenging to work with than a publisher would be, you have to spend more time and energy for less money because there’s a lot they don’t understand.

Patricia Dishmon

@Nyrryl-Cadiz Thanks so much for the advice and the compliments!
I've been reaching out to some agents, but I've only just started. Networking is definitely my biggest weakness and I really struggle with maintaining a presence in groups or reaching out to people. Any advice with that is greatly appreciated!

I think I gravitate towards sites like Upwork because it simplifies the process but the cost of that simplicity is pretty steep lol

Patricia Dishmon

@Griffin-McPherson You're so right. It's kind of a shame because I love the spirit of a lot of my clients. Unfortunately, these projects aren't sustainable to take on.

It makes me kinda sad because I think to myself "how is someone supposed to make something worthwhile if they can't pay for it?"

Patricia Dishmon

@Melissa_Bailey Thanks so much for the advice! You're always so helpful lol
While I already try to be as clear as possible, I'm definitely not clear enough about the actual content of the illustrations. This is something I'll have to start doing as this is what contributes to the scope creep the most for me, imo.

What was it like when you started moving away from Upwork?

Griffin McPherson

@Patricia-Dishmon honestly I think that if someone wants to create a story that badly then they should just pitch it to publishers. I think a lot of people gravitate towards self publishing not only because it allows for more creative control but because it’s more in reach. Pitching manuscripts is hard and time consuming. It’s hard to pull all of that off but I think it’s for good reason. If a story isn’t worth fighting that hard for then it probably isn’t worth publishing.

Melissa_Bailey

@Patricia-Dishmon yeah, clear communication makes all the difference! As well as not undervaluing your work or your time. It's been my experience that the more I brought my prices in line with the going rate for US illustrators, the easier clients were to work with and the less picky they became. Not easy on Upwork, I know, because you're basically pricing yourself way above most of the competition, but it is still possible to be hired on Upwork with industry-standard prices. You're just not going to be hired as often; the client pool is much, much smaller. (But then you'll be making more per job so you won't need as many clients.)

To answer your question about moving away from Upwork, gonna be honest: I was nervous because Upwork was a safety net for me. I was worried that the work would dry up. But I've been working steadily since, usually with a wait list of 4-6 months. Part of what helped is that I've built strong working relationships with a few clients and they've hired me for repeat jobs -- and I was able to transition them off of Upwork (which they liked because then they didn't have to pay the Upwork fees).

Having a portfolio in SCBWI's Illustrator's Gallery has gotten me quite a few jobs. Some clients find me on social media -- I've gotten a few jobs from Instagram and Facebook. But my personal experience with Facebook groups has been similar to Upwork clients -- they're looking for a lot while spending a little, the "bang for your buck" mentality. Quite a few clients contact me via my website. At the moment, I don't advertise my site or actively look for self-publishing clients.

To be completely honest, I've priced myself out of the range of most self-publishers. The pool is much smaller for me, but I'm not going to lower my prices; that would be a step backward, I think. While I used to illustrate 5-7 books a year, now I average 2 or 3. But my yearly income has increased, the quality of the work has gotten better because I'm able to take more time to illustrate and my clients give me more creative freedom. And the self-publishers who are willing to pay higher prices are also more serious about their craft and approach self-publishing as a business venture, which it is. They're interested in putting out the best product possible and matching the quality of traditionally published books -- with the intention of giving their book the best chance in a crowded market. For the most part, I've had really good experiences with these clients.

I'm at the point where working with self-publishers alone probably will not be sustainable, both because of my prices and the current market. So I'm expanding my horizons, looking for an agent, getting dummies ready to submit to publishers, working on self-publishing my own books, and diversifying my income. I also offer other services: book design, self-publishing coaching, and editing. At this point, not looking to get back into Upwork.

Currently, I'm illustrating 2 books with self-published authors and have 1 editing job and 4 book design projects on the go. My wait list is the shortest it's been in 3 years, about 2 months (up until last week, it looked like I was going to be booked out until the end of the year, but that job fell through because they wanted to go with a lower-priced illustrator -- this happens a lot).

This is probably way more of an answer than what you were asking, but I wanted to give you a full picture of what my current situation is, warts and all. Even with a little more struggle and uncertainty at times, I'm glad that I've been able to transition away from Upwork.

Melissa_Bailey

@Griffin-McPherson your views on self-publishing does describe a lot of authors, sadly. But not all. There are self-publishers out there that do take their craft seriously and are a pleasure to work with. But yes, they are the minority.

As far as the thought that if a story isn't picked up by a publisher then it's not worth publishing -- that might be true for a great number of self-published books, but again, it's not always the case. Traditional publishing is, first and foremost, a business. The decisions they make are based on profit and loss. A lot of good manuscripts are rejected, not for creative reasons, but because it doesn't fit in the publisher's catalog or they don't think they can sell enough books to make it worth their while. Or sometimes the publisher thinks that the theme is too niche to appeal to their wider audience.

For books like that, self-publishing is a great option. The author can pour their heart and soul into it, make the book that they want to make, and if they hire talented illustrators, editors, and book designers, produce a product that rivals traditionally published books.

Yes, a book like that might not sell thousands of copies, like a traditional publisher needs it to do, but maybe the author only needs to sell 500 or 1,000 copies to break even, and would be happy with that. Depending on their business model and marketing campaign, a self-publisher can more quickly recoup costs and make a profit because they don't have the overhead that a traditional publisher has. And sometimes, the decision to self-publish isn't about making a profit, but because they feel they need to put this book out in the world. In the case of a passion project, they're okay with investing a lot of time, energy, and money into it and maybe not ever making a cent.

So while I agree that most self-published books are below the quality of traditionally published books, there are some really great self-published books out there.

Griffin McPherson

@Melissa_Bailey I totally agree, I didn’t mean it to sound like all self publishers are like that, more so that many self publishing authors want the end product but not all of the work that needs to be put in to get there. This is not their fault, there’s a lot that they don’t know and understand about the process because how would they know unless they had been taught or learned from experience. So often times they learn while working through the process for the first time that maybe they don’t want this as badly as they thought once they understand everything that has to be done. I think that’s why self publishing is so saturated with people like this. They are simply new to it, and they’re excited to get their story out there. Those few really great self publishers are great because they’ve persevered and they wanted to write and publish their story badly enough to put in all of the work.

Nyrryl Cadiz

@Patricia-Dishmon Hi Patricia! I did Upwork when I was starting out to and it was a nightmare. one project I worked on paid only $75 for a whole book. The whole experience as well as the product was garbage as one would expect.

I've had a better experience on Facebook children's book groups. Usually self publishing authors there are more informed to the publishing process. they also tend to have a better budget tho still not as ideal. Usually these author's would make a post that they're looking for an illustrator and to DM them if interested. Shoot your shot and if they like your work, they'll hire you.

glenfx

I think @Melissa_Bailey gave great important points.
Start by only showing the work you want to do, and don't be afraid to let go or avoid the picky clients or those you have a strong feeling they will be problematic at some point (they are quite easy to spot most of the time).

Upwork and freelancer are just bad, unfortunately the clients there are looking for cheap work and they are not putting effort or care into their projects, I used it about 5 years ago and hated it.

Most of my clients so far have come to me after seeing my work and it has been a blast working with them, from the bunch I got from freelancer most asked far more then what they paid for and weren't too nice to deal with, and only a couple of those clients where really amazing to work with.

I have seen a few groups for children books over at facebook but they don't seem to like artists posting there and they focus more on the writing side than anything else, is there a group you guys would recommend for artist to connect to authors?

Melissa_Bailey

@glenfx are you a member of SCBWI? If so, their Illustrator's Gallery is a great resource -- industry professionals regularly peruse it and the independent publishers who have found me there have been awesome to work with.

As far as Facebook groups, there aren't any that I would recommend, but I don't have much experience with them either. The two that I was in, I'm no longer a part of. Yes, authors in those groups regularly posted requests for illustrator recommendations, and the same illustrators kept getting recommended over and over, so it might be a good income source for some. But the admins, "experienced" authors, and self-publishing coaches in those 2 groups told newer authors to expect to pay $1,000 - $3,000 USD for a picture book illustrator. This is way below the going rate for the US industry, and for a US-based illustrator, it's just not enough to make a living on.

glenfx

@Melissa_Bailey hey, no, years ago I had my doubts about joining since you have to pay yearly and it kind of felt it was similar to freelancer (there you can pay a subscription fee that will get you "lots of benefits") so after having a bad experience with freelancer I just didn't feel like wasting more money elsewhere.

Since then my style changed to be more mature on the comics and Hearthstone side so I have been afraid my work is not completely suitable for most children book authors now so I think it might be kind of useless to apply there .

Melissa_Bailey

@glenfx yeah, if you're not pursuing children's book illustration (picture book, middle grade, or YA), SCBWI is probably not worth it.

Just to set the record straight, SCBWI is not like Freelancer or Upwork. The acronym stands for The Society of Children's Book Writers and Illustrators -- it's a worldwide organization for those involved in publishing for children, and great for networking. It's not a website that plays the middleman between client and freelancer. Though there is an Illustrator's Gallery, it's more to give illustrators exposure and market their skills.

So while illustrators do get work from SCBWI, that's really not the main purpose of being a member.