PODCAST FEEDBACK NEEDED
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@Lee-White Thanks! I think this is a really interesting topic! I think about it in terms of character designs. We have some norms especially in animation. The main character needs to be the most appealing, and the supporting characters appealing, but not quite a cool and the bad guy kind of alarming so forth. This is so engrained that we can usually spot a potential, villan, love interest or main character just from the movie poster. Do we then end up casting or drawing in a stereotypical way because that is how storytelling works to achieve that? It would be an interesting project to create a classic squad that works together. (Leader, brains, plucky comic relief, techie, emotional compass) and a Nemesis core (Bad guy, second in command, Enforcers). And then mix up the physical characteristics from the typical mix. Sometimes we see that done purposely (short bad guy etc) But it would be a good experiment. Maybe put them on dice and see what you get over and over. This would be easiest with skin and hair color, but body type and ability gets more challenging. Usually our main character is very cool and fit.
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Like a lot of others, I also feel that this would be a great topic to discuss and one I would definitely listen to.
I think that there are a lot of shared experiences that people of certain genders/races/cultures have, and by hiring a person of that gender/race/culture they would be coming in with a view of that shared experience which would help them to create a book that can relate to those genders/races/cultures more authentically than if made by someone who has not had these experiences. Although I think it's all really dependent on the subject matter. If you're asked to create an educational book illustrating aspects of a certain culture, I feel this can be achieved by anyone with the right research. However, if the content is geared more towards the experience a character has while growing up that is prevalent to a particular culture/race, it might be better to have someone of the same culture/race who can empathize with that content to create illustrations for it. Perhaps if the content was about a shared experience or an experience the artist/author is able to research well or get insight from people who had experienced it, it could be illustrated by anybody. Overall though, I think representation in children's books is important and having characters that resemble the children we meet in life helps them to feel included and connected to the stories we read them. I would also like to think that it helps other kids develop empathy and sympathy by allowing them to relate to characters that don't look or act like they do.
Two writers/illustrators that come to mind for this topic would be Ezra Jack Keats (he was mentioned in a previous comment as well) and Lio Lionni (particularly his book Little Blue and Little Yellow).
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I would love to hear a podcast on this topic. Though I have been to a lot of conferences and listened to other podcasts tackle the subject as well. Vanessa Brantley Newton does a great job talking about diversity and representation within publishing if you could get her as a guest that would be awesome!
For me, I think research and understanding is important and I can list a handful of author/illustrators that did an amazing job with representation, telling stories about people outside of their own backgrounds. Ezra Jack Keats, Jessica Love, and Francis Vallejo just to name a few. But for books like Crown: An Ode to the Fresh Cut I really don’t know how this book would have been illustrated if it was from someone outside of the black/African American community. There’s a certain experience needed to illustrate this story accurately and I believe the art director knew this and they needed an illustrator who fully understood this experience, getting a fresh cut at a black barber shop. Which is why I think the book did so well within the community it represents. A connection was made, an authentic connection, so why wouldn’t you want that for the book?
And while I say research is great looking up photographs and reading articles just isn’t enough sometimes. Getting someone who is a great writer/illustrator with an authentic experience that relates to the story seems to make perfect sense. Why wouldn’t you want your story to be as authentic as possible? If you’re only doing surface work what’s the point?
I think @NessIllustration is 100% right, illustrating is only part of the job asking yourself these questions, as she stated, is very important AND is part of the job as an illustrator. We’ve seen there have been many books created that did not represent specific groups of people or cultures accurately and that can be a career ending mistake these days. So if you’re not asking yourself these questions then why are you illustrating? Just to create a pretty illustration? All stories demand more than that. So, why do you feel you are the right person to write or illustrate these types of stories if that's all you are going to contribute? Authenticity allows a story to make a deeper connection for the communities, the kids, the adults, the people, the places, and the cultures it is representing. Representation matters but if you can not do that authentically and you offend rather than inspire then you are not the right person to be writing or illustrating these stories.
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I would also like to hear that talk! I was struggling a bit this Inktober when I drew a character resembling an indiginous person from South America. How similar does she have to be to a certain people, (in her case, I got inspired by some fotos of Yanomami), if I depict her in an environmet, how closely does it have to sesemble their natural habitat; their tools, their traditional food ... If I had done this for a bigger project, not just for single fast drawings, I would have done more research on the topic. Is it offensive to draw indigenous people withought knowledge of their culture? I would like to know your opinions. I'd like to continue drawing them. I am fascinated by their ways of life (the few things I read so far). I think it can help to get feedback from someone of the community you're depicting. Which might be difficult in that case.
An illustrator has a certain responsibility: He delivers an image about what he draws to society. They might believe in it as true! Still today, most people think that native Americans are like what Karl May described in his novels (edit: Well, this might be rather german - anyone out there knows Winnetou & Co?). In any case, I would not want to only draw (fe)male white people all my life! That's completely boring
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I think it is very valuable to discuss this topic!
Often I take my kids to the library hoping to find books that show main characters who are of a race other than white. One time I went on a mission to find books with no white characters whatsoever and spent three hours searching until I had a basketful. It is so difficult to find books like this, unless they are about historic figures or events, or books that pay homage to the great sufferings that people groups have endured and are enduring. These are fantastic books too, but I hope that my kids will grow up not thinking twice when they see black heroes, or a brown scientist or doctor or executive or king or queen or principal or wealthy person, or an interracial family, in a picture book that has no intentional tie to race or history.
In the American culture, there is great emphasis on the white race being “the norm”, even though on a global level that isn’t true. I hope, as illustrators, we can help the upcoming generations consider the whole earth as their home and to have a more honest global consciousness.
The images kids see play into their subconscious beliefs about who they are, what they can achieve, what they and others are “supposed” to be like, and what is considered acceptable in society. In a world that fills their minds with advertising and other media, I’d love to see illustrators challenge some of the stereotypes that are so thoughtlessly promoted in other forms of image making.
Thanks for considering this topic and for bringing on guests! Great idea! I’m interested in many of the questions others have brought up.
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I think this is a great topic! The more places this is part of the conversation, the more it will be an issue considered which will only elevate the books out in the world.
I have been listening to the Kid Lit Women Podcast as a resource for the Picture Book class I teach. https://www.kidlitwomen.com/http/kidlitwomenpodcastlibsyncom
And the recent Episode 99 about #ownvoices seems like it would be appropriate to this general topic.
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I would definitely like to hear a discussion on this and I think a guest speaker is also a great idea. I completely admire you at svs for tackling such a difficult subject.
I think these issues are also incredibly important, especially considering some of the disturbing political trends lately. I think kids need to grow up seeing lots of different types of people and cultures, so the more diversity there is in illustration, the richer we all are for it.
I’m currently reading some amazing Japanese fairy tales to my kids, who are absolutely captivated by them. If I was to illustrate this I would be nervous about getting it wrong, without expert advice and critical feedback from Japanese people.One question that has worried me;
Is there a point where it can be seen as exploitive for an illustrator to represent a different culture than the one they’re from? -
@Aleksey And people with disabilities
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@danielerossi ugh yes! Sorry I should have mentioned them as well.
Side note It would be amazing if there was closed captioning on the svslearn videos because people who are hard of hearing communicate visually and enjoy art!
instagram and twitter: @artofaleksey
alekseyillustration.com -
I’d be interested in learning about how to ensure the research you do of the other cultures/experiences is optimal.
For example, I’ve always been interested in Inuit culture and would love to write/draw a graphic novel taking place in the Canadian Arctic with Inuit characters. Do I ask any random Inuit person and assume they have all the answers by default* or go to an Inuit studies department in a university or a tourism board? Or perhaps the answer is to consult as many sources as possible. The more research the better, no?
A plan B I have is to simply tell a real story of whoever it is in the other culture/experience. For example, one of my Inktober drawings was about a friend of mine who uses a wheelchair and is Ethiopian. I was inspired by an experience she shared on Instagram and drew an illustration around her words. I included her words and a drawing of my friend. Before posting, I showed the illustration to her and she said it was fine. So it became more of a collaboration.
Come to think of it, how does Disney do it?
*I speak with a stutter and I’m often asked what causes it, how to treat it, etc. but I don’t have all the answers. I’m also second generation Italian but only know so-much about my heritage and there are variances throughout the country due to history.
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@Aleksey No worries. I wasn’t picking on you. I’m just doing my part on spreading much needed awareness
People with disabilities seem to still be overlooked though times are slowly changing.And great idea about the captions on the videos!
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Great article on this subject from Kidlit writer Lisa Yee: https://scholar.lib.vt.edu/ejournals/ALAN/v42n2/yee.html?fbclid=IwAR1BkunHqcij843fmHyxZH-gzaaLfHaVgo5Ca_AsiyqSLJBq_6siK8yITlI
SVS Faculty Instructor
www.leewhiteillustration.com -
@danielerossi oh no worries i know your werent pickin on me I appreciate you bringing it up
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@Lee-White great article! Thank you for sharing.
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@danielerossi When I was in college in Film Animation, I had a very fascinating class about visual research. We reviewed time periods since the pyramids with an emphasis on visual rather than historical events: clothing, jewelry, architecture, furniture, objects of daily life. As part of class we watched clips of Disney movies to spot some of those elements. It's interesting to realize that Disney has mixed and matched a lot, The clothing and architecture would mix elements not strictly of the same time period. Their goal was to create a look that would feel right, not be a 100% accurate time piece. And it works for them, no one is going around getting offended because Hercules mixes elements from the Greek Archaic, Classical and Hellenistic periods in the architecture and clothing. But with more modern situations, it's a fine line to walk. Anyway, the class then went on to teach to how to research these things by ourselves and we had to do a research project were we presented the visual aspects of a culture/time period not covered during class. I chose Persian during Achaemenid times. Fascinating stuff!
vanessastoilova.com
instagram.com/vanessa.stoilova/Check out my Youtube channel for tips on how to start your career in illustration! www.youtube.com/c/ArtBusinesswithNess
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@NessIllustration That sounds like a very cool class!
SVS Faculty Instructor
www.leewhiteillustration.com -
@Lee-White Oh yeah! I think it may be my favourite of the whole 4 years I was there!
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@Lee-White Good article.
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@Lee-White cheers Lee that was a good article, well worth a read.
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I'd like to hear it. These issues have been important in my life. I've noticed significant progress in who and what is represented in mainstream American media in my lifetime, and it's because people are willing to be introspective, have conversions, and take some risks. You may ruffle feathers, but you guys seem sensitive and honest enough to have an interesting discussion which will help nudge us all toward more growth.
What I'm most interested in hearing is how this topic currently relates to the publishers, editors, art directors, etc. What is going on behind the scenes when selecting authors, manuscripts, and illustrators as it relates to diversity, representation, and authenticity? What are some of the considerations they make and are there any obstacles they face? What are their priorities when selecting an illustrator? Does this mean minority illustrators need to market themselves as a minority and of a certain culture in order to be considered for projects related to their culture? How would the search be made for illustrators of certain minority groups?
There's a book coming in February called "Ohana Means Family" by a Hawaii resident and as far as I can tell, and non-Hawaii resident illustrator, Kenard Pak. From what I can see of the artwork- it feels and looks very appropriate for a Hawaii rural setting. It looks beautiful. I've seen some of his work before and I'm stoked that it's now featured in Hawaiiana children's literature. I'd be interested to know what the process was like in choosing him to illustrate this book. Was a Hawaii illustrator even considered? Why or why not? Did he receive any sort of consultation for cultural representation or was the research all up to him? (it seems like it would be a simple research process, but what about for other projects where more cultural symbols are involved)
From my limited perspective as an American who feels racially and culturally ambiguous- I just want lots of well thought out, high quality media that tells a diversity of stories and features all kinds of people. I want good storytellers working on these projects. I want storytellers to be free to tell stories from their own experiences and to tell stories outside of their experiences. I want people to be sensitive and thoughtful, but to not be afraid to make stories and represent other humans from all walks of life! I just want the work to be made. I think the more we get diverse stories out, the more access it can potentially give to minority voices in the future. Disney has been great in this area. To have such a huge platform role out movies like Pocahontas, Mulan, Princess in the Frog, Big Hero 6, Moana, and Coco is wonderful. Do they get it perfect and 100% authentic? Nope. Has it been meaningful to a lot of people? Yup.
Thanks for considering this topic! I've loved reading through everyone's thoughts.
