Hey SVS, Very Important
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@andyg I was very worried about „the race to the bottom“ when I started freelancing myself - I knew all too well that there are excellent artists in low-cost countries. After a few years striding the line (aka: working as art director by day and as artist by night) I am much less worried...
I think most solid clients (and publishers) are well aware that you mostly get what you pay for and budget accordingly. At the least, the problem you have with hiring a designer from a country where the cost of living is low is that his/her style may not be well suited to other cultural environments. Sometimes it´s difficult to transmit what you want and there are communication challenges. It’s not always the case - I have a long-standing working relationship with a production designer from Belgrade whom I very much like to work with.
The one thing I can say is: do not base your value on cost...ever. You can’t win that race if you live in Europe or the US. People should hire you because of your style, your vision, your creativity - never because you’re cheap(er).
You can build your business upon hiring other people to do the work: it´s called having an agency
As long as it´s clear to everybody, it`s a perfectly legitimate business. Just know that you are acting as creative director or art director and not as artist - it’s a different job. -
@smceccarelli awesome....thankyou!
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@smceccarelli When I started illustrating, I used Odesk( now Upwork). I charged very low and it landed me the job. But do you know what you get by bidding low? A very lousy client! He wanted me to finish a 24-page children's book in 3 weeks and didn't really care much for me as an illustrator. When I finished, he had the nerve to be disappointed in my work! He ended up not using my watercolor illustrations and had another amateur illustrator do an identical but digital version of my work. The book did not do well. What's the lesson? If you charge cheap, you get bad clients.
Portfolio: nyrrylcadiz.com
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nyrryl_cadiz/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbJCF1Im8ZO7hpGWTKOJMuA -
@gary-wilkinson I know, right! Like @Lee-White said, that he's been through this and it's (lemons and sour lollipops.) Can't wait to hear his take. It's easy to see that these people, who take advantage by stealing other people's work, are scam artists. They use professional work to hook that self-publishing writer who knows nothing about illustration. Professional work being stolen is the bad side of this especially if someone really believes that it's you on that site. However, the good side is that now we, as professionals, have more leverage because we can prove that if you want a cheap illustration, you'll get one so it's better to buy direct.
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@nyrryl-cadiz I recently watched @Will-Terry 's videos about freelancing and that is what started this whole thing because I was checking the market. I've been a freelancer for years in other areas so it's a natural transition. You are so right when you basically say 'don't sell yourself short.' I also think it's smarter to sell from our own platform and market it-- rather than to join the masses.
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@blessings Thank you for pulling this up - I've spent too much time trying to get these taken down - I'll chalk it up to putting myself out there - comes with the territory? Sigh. But the thoughts were already expressed on this thread...I suppose in some places in this world $10 is a fortune? I'm very fortunate not to be in a place where I would entertain the idea of making a buck this way.
SVS Instructor
http://willterry.com/ -
@smceccarelli I've heard about the "race to the bottom" but I had no idea people were this bad or this desperate about getting there.
Is this sort of thing going to seriously damage the standing of serious Illustrators trying to make a serious living or is it just some con-artists trying to make a quick buck out of cost oriented clients who don't really understand the value of Illustration? (and why should they if no one tells them, and frames it like it's an off the shelf product in a supermarket done by a faceless robot).
Hopefully as you say there are better clients who value the real worth of original Illustration and treat an Illustrator more like a partner who is bringing value to their organization, product or service and not just a commodity they can get cheaper somewhere else. When I was a member of the AOI back in 2011 I read warnings about undercharging and undercutting others that it damaged the standing of illustrators as a whole. The best client I had paid me very well (and was very nice and polite) and the job went smoothly. I can definitely attest to the cost based approach of being a good way of getting into some really awkward and sole destroying situations where that job at the supermarket starts to look really promising.
I've been doing a lot of self business education over the last few years and I've been wondering if I should join the Association of illustrators or something again if I do decide to freelance in the future. I learned many lessons in my younger years about the perils of freelancing (not having the education and wisdom to avoid some basic pitfalls and red flags being self taught unfortunately). Speculative art / working for nothing is a complete waste of time, but that's another subject altogether anyway.
website: https://thimblefolio.com
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@christine-garner Being a buyer for one of those clients (it´s really awkward to be on both sides of the discussion somehow!) I can assure you that there are people who know the value of illustrations and are prepared to pay accordingly. How many of those people and jobs are available for how many illustrators, i cannot tell.
Clearly, there are probably much more people who have no idea what goes into illustration work - and then it´s our task to explain it to them. An illustrator should never feel pressured to undersell his work just because the client does not understand its value. No other professional does that - it seems this disease only affects people in creative jobs - like a collective inferiority complex.
But the competition of the globalized world is fierce, clearly. The value needs to be there in the first place, to be able to make a value statement. As one teacher said: you are either the best artist for the job or the nicest person to work with or both...and if you miss a deadline it´s probably your last job. As somebody who hires artists and designers of all types and prices, I can tell that there is a lot of truth in this statement... -
@smceccarelli Thanks for your reply, its very useful to know these things. I got lots of practice at this sort of thing when I did freelance webdesign jobs for 7 years or so and I worked in admin positions, and deadlines have never been a problem for me (essay writing in my archaeology degree maybe?).
I guess self doubt is a big problem in Illustration and art in general. Its hard not to compare yourself against everyone and always feel like you need to get better. I agree with you though, its the client that ultimately decides the value whether your work is good enough for their project and what they might pay you- especially with art as it's so subjective.
I wonder if there should be some sort of professionalism / client relationship training for Illustrators, it might come in handy. I listen to design podcasts to get tips and read up on how Graphic Designers and Photographers work. I's odd how Illustrators seem to be perceived or perceive themselves differently (less professional or serious) than Photographers and Graphic Designers even though there are many parallels with these professions.
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@will-terry Wow, thanks. I’m pretty shocked that the owners haven’t honored your request.
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@blessings They get taken down and then put back up... I can't look backwards - I must press forwards. I refuse to spend my mental energy or time on what probably wouldn't translate to money in my pocket anyway.
