PODCAST FEEDBACK NEEDED

[MOO]

@Lee-White I know that I was toying with an idea for an alphabet book using sign language. I asked a friend who is hearing impaired and a involved in the deaf community. She told me that. If I were to do it, it would need to be with a deaf person. It seems important to have someone who truly understands that community-no outsiders.

As far as race and gender, etc? I feel most comfortable with what I know.

[Phil Cullen]

I think it would be a good podcast to do, I'd listen. I'd be interested in hearing thoughts on the issues, from guest speakers. I'm glad to hear that it wouldn't just be the 3 of you. As much as I love the podcast it wouldn't be helpful to discuss diversity with just 3 white guys.

Judging from most of the comments too it's something that people are interested in.

I heard on a podcast before with Armand Baltazar where he talked about pitching his book 'Timeless: Diego and the Rangers of the Vastlantic'. He basically received feedback from publishers asking him to make the main character a white kid, the main character was based after his son, so this wasn't going to be a change he would make. He said multiple publishers had the same request. This was 2017 and publishers were still trying to white wash books so they would sell more. Their concerns were ridiculous as it would get picked up by Harper Collins on a 3 book deal and is also going to be made into a movie possible series of movies by Ridley Scott's company.

That's slightly different to what you mentioned, however it does illustrate a bias in the industry with some publishers. Anyone who says there is no bias has blinkers on. It is an uncomfortable subject to discuss, but one that need discussion.

I think it could be helpful to hear from a wide variety of people too (not just one guest speaker) not sure if that is possible on the podcast tho.

Look forward to listening to it, if you do it.

[Amanda Bancroft]

I could learn a lot from a podcast or series with these topics, so yeah, I think go for it! And maybe someone already mentioned it, but I'd like to hear more about illustrators who are on the autism spectrum like myself. Are there any really successful illustrators that manage to balance getting through life with a career and autism both? Some days I feel like I can't possibly make it in my art business because of my challenges, but I also feel like we in the autism community have unique strengths like special interests or focus ability or something that gives us an edge. Would like to see that on the podcast or linked to an autistic illustrator in podcast resources for that episode, maybe

[sigross]

@Amanda-Bancroft yes that's a good idea. It would be good to get Stephen Wiltshire on the podcast. He's phenomenal.

[Kevin Longueil]

@Amanda-Bancroft Have you ever seen this interview? It is with Jorge Gutierrez of "Book of Life" fame - he did not know he was on the spectrum until he was an adult and he speaks of the strengths that it gives him in the interview - one of bobby's best interviews i think - i've watched it more than once myself https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAkVOqn6MSs

[lenwen]

I really think this is an interesting subject to tackle. I am currently working on a picture book as marketing tools for a big hotel in Japan(I, myself is a Chinese born and raised in Indonesia). When I did the character design, I did search for a Japanese little girl's clothes. I ended up making the character wearing a modern Yukata design that I found on the internet. But after I submitted it to the client, they requested something more casual and which most kids wear in daily life. Not only that, but I also made lots of mistakes like make the Yukata wrap in the wrong direction, draw totally not common breakfast on the table, etc.
After lots of revisions and research, the sketches are done.

I think the common mistakes which not intentionally done by an illustrator who draws stories/ characters which is not in their own culture are two: if it's not over showing it (like I draw the girl character in modern Yukata instead of general daily life clothes) then totally ignore it.

For me personally, probably as long as the story is fiction and maybe not based on history, I would love to draw characters and stories from different cultures. Also, as long as the client/ editor/art director/ author discuss and help along the way, I do think it's fun and also give me lots of knowledge of other cultures.
So, it's interesting to hear this topic from other's perspectives and opinions.

[xin li]

@lenwen Thanks for sharing your experience. very interesting to hear that.

[jimsz]

@Lee-White

Lee I get what you are saying but again I say this is being made overly complex for political correctness sake.

If you or I or any of the amazingly talented people here were awarded an assignment from a publisher that involved a foreign culture, specific traditional dress, symbology, etc., of course they should perform some research and have an understanding of the topic they are illustrating. That should be expected for any work an artist is creating.

[Lee White]

@jimsz Being able to complete a project, if hired, is only a very small part of this discussion. I know that most pro illustrators can do the job and probably do it well. But there are so many issues we are talking about here.

I do agree with you that most pro illustrators are perfectly capable of doing a job. Otherwise they wouldn't be pro illustrators. But there are a lot of points that other people have made in this thread that go so much deeper into this subject. But, you are correct in the point you are making.

One of the questions that I find more interesting than the one you are asking (which is "Should an illustrator have the skill to depict something from another culture and/or race?) is to look at what is currently available on the market and are we really being "overly PC" as you are suggesting?

For example, If I walked into a children's book section of a library, and was blindfolded and asked to randomly pull books from the shelf, how many of those books would contain an african-american character? I would bet that if truly asked to do this, you would pull down hundreds of books before you happen to select one with an african-american character. Or, maybe you wouldn't even be able to randomly select one with an african american child as the lead.

So a better question than the one you are asking is "If a professional illustrator can draw any race or culture out there, why are 99% of the books on the shelf only showing Caucasian kids? Why is there not more diversity to choose from? What should non white kids look at that shows them a version of themselves? These are much more interesting questions in my opinion.

[Lee White]

PS, I'm trying to put my money where my mouth is and I included an african american girl as the lead character in my current book. The book is not about diversity or anything like that, I just chose to have her be the lead. This is how I like to think about including diverstiy in books. Not having the book be about race or anything overly political, but just showing other characters with different backgrounds. Something I hope to get better at as I go along. (here's a small cropped version of that character.)

[Eli]

Yes, yes yes please! This is a topic that needs to be explored.

[Coreyartus]

This last month's SCBWI meeting in San Diego was a panel discussion about diversity and inclusion. They provided some interesting stats (see images here) and a wonderful video found here. The panel was primarily about writing children's books, not illustrating them.

The biggest take-away that I got from it was the concept of "windows" and "mirrors". That as much as young people want to read about people like themselves, they also want to read about people who are different. Creating diverse books is sometimes about providing windows for children to look through at others who aren't like them, and sometimes about providing mirrors in which they can see themselves reflected back.

Regardless of whether it's a window or a mirror, we have to have a basis of knowledge and research (some might say experience is stronger) from which to draw upon so we are actually being authentic and true in our stories.

One of the panelists, René Colato Laínez, said something very interesting. He said he was given advice from an editor that he never forgot. She had told him that when writing stories about a specific culture or minority: if you can take the names of the characters and change them to a different culture (like making all the characters French instead of Latino) and your story isn't impacted or altered, you're not actually writing a story that speaks to the experience of that culture or minority.

In my head, that meant: If you're writing a fairy tale that takes place in Russia, make sure you're using Russia on purpose and not just as decoration. I suppose the same thing can be said about illustrating: don't do something purposefully in, say, a Japanese style, for example, without knowing the why's and how's of the authentic style you're drawing upon. Otherwise you might be communicating information and mistakes you don't realize you're making... (I think that's the definition of cultural appropriation--using pieces of a cultural expression for your own derivative purposes without respecting or caring where it came from or what it might mean or what you might inadvertently communicate...)

Not all stories fit that paradigm. But make sure your choice to include characters of varying ethnicities or cultures or whatever doesn't contradict itself. Do your research. Hire a Sensitivity Reader like you would an Editor for your work. Ask friends from those communities if your work rings true and is non-offensive. 'What we don't know' can inadvertently be a big deal.

One other thing they did mention was the #OwnVoices movement and the inverted version of it that some seem to use against it: the idea that people of a specific minority are the only ones capable of writing stories or illustrating authentic characters from those minorities, and that given the interest in writing that embraces diversity (in 2015 fifteen publishing houses announced new imprints specifically for diversity titles), there is no place for white writers. That is simply not true. But if your goal as a white, 55-year-old male is to create a story about the experience of being a black woman, don't be naive and think your sympathy equates empathy. Respect your subject enough to strive to tell the best story in the most authentic way you can, and that means making an effort at hearing (and actively listening) to their voices and seeking out their expertise, perspectives, and impressions of your work.

[Amanda Bancroft]

@sigross thanks, I shall have to check out Stephen Wiltshire!

[Amanda Bancroft]

@Kevin-Longueil thanks I'll check out that video and learn more about Jorge Gutierrez!

[Lee White]

@Coreyartus That's a great video. Love it!

[jimsz]

@Lee-White said in PODCAST FEEDBACK NEEDED:

One of the questions that I find more interesting than the one you are asking (which is "Should an illustrator have the skill to depict something from another culture and/or race?) is to look at what is currently available on the market and are we really being "overly PC" as you are suggesting?

For example, If I walked into a children's book section of a library, and was blindfolded and asked to randomly pull books from the shelf, how many of those books would contain an african-american character? I would bet that if truly asked to do this, you would pull down hundreds of books before you happen to select one with an african-american character. Or, maybe you wouldn't even be able to randomly select one with an african american child as the lead.

So a better question than the one you are asking is "If a professional illustrator can draw any race or culture out there, why are 99% of the books on the shelf only showing Caucasian kids? Why is there not more diversity to choose from? What should non white kids look at that shows them a version of themselves? These are much more interesting questions in my opinion.

That's a very interesting question. If 99% of the books in your area are of white people, what are the demographics of your area? Is it the books don't reflect the demographics or that the books that sell and are stocked don't reflect the demographics? Bookstores will stock what sells and makes them money. But you posed an interesting question and I will stop at the book store in my town and go through a random stack and report what I find.

[CatOnPaper]

@Lee-White I imagine this could be a section of the podcast that bleeds out to other topics and brings vlback to previous discussed things yet is very strong related to this one.
I would like to hear your take on pricing/paying services based on where the artists are from. It is frustrating to even imagine there are talented artists charging the 100th of their worth just because they are from "poor countries"

[Christine Dion]

A person who has had vast experiences in life and has interacted with various individuals can build up their creative bank account and thus be able to draw from that knowledge to create characters from all walks of life.

This is not rocket science.

Have I flown to the moon? NO. But I can draw from my knowledge (I teach at the high school Alan Shepard attended) and I can do the research. I

'm not a dog. But I can create all sorts of dogs based upon my knowledge, experiences and research on them.

We have allowed ourselves to be influenced by the outside world to impose their opinions on our creative problem solving and creativity in general. We do not create "by committee". If I want my humans to be all shapes, sizes, colors and abilities, I'm going to present that. If I want it to reflect what is currently sitting in front of me in my high school classroom, then I'll draw that. (Which by the way is 17 white boys and 2 white girls..some have glasses...and all are working in Photoshop at the moment.) THAT is my reality. If it's not your reality where you live, then YOU create what you see and be fine with it. If I want to represent more diversity then I will research to see what a "typical" classroom looks like in the midwest, the southwest, the northwest, etc. But here in NH, THAT is my reality in the largest high school in our state.

There are plenty of "old, white men" who draw beautiful characters of all kinds. And there are plenty of "old, white women" (like my 51 year old self) who can also draw beautiful characters of all kind. But I'm really with Will when it comes to children's books...I've been sticking with animal characters. I don't have the patience to deal with the obnoxious rants from people who are going to complain about the human characters I choose to illustrate. Or those who tell me I'm not "qualified" to draw someone who doesn't look like me.

If they don't like it, they can draw their own.

[Lee White]

@mrsdion Totally agree with you Christine! We established that any pro illustrator can and should be able to draw any job. And do it well! We are painting a TON of stuff we don't know about. So we can and should draw things that aren't around us in our daily lives. We would not make a living at this if it was any other way.

But some of the more nuanced things we are discussing here are (note, I'm not attempting to answer any of these. Just noting they are worth discussing):

1. Who actually gets hired for jobs? Is there a racial and/or gender bias and if so, why.
2. If pro illustrators can draw any race or ethnicity, why are 90% of kids books about white kids?
3. How does it affect someone growing up to not see themselves represented in books and media? (This is changing for the better thank goodness!)
4. Do we have as many minorities that are being trained to actually be pro level and what obsticals do they face that maybe white people don't. Even just having people in your family that went to college is a HUGE factor in how someone will be supported in the decision to take on higher learning.
5. In culturally sensitive books, should be book project be given to someone of that race/gender/etc. over someone who isn't that particular thing (talent level being equal of course)?
6. How should illustrators prepare themselves for potential minefields when illustrating culturally sensitive material? (this is a huge topic, one that I've already experienced as a pro and you have to be ready for it).

All super interesting questions (in my opinion) and again, I am not attempting to answer them per se, (or even need them answered). I just think it's worth discussing. I don't think it's obnoxious to talk about this stuff. I think it's interesting. It's sensitive for a lot of people and since I am a not a minority and haven't has to deal with this issue, I'm just gonna listen for a bit and see what I can learn.

[TessaW]

@Lee-White I really like the summary of issues you've posted in this latest comment. There are issues you've listed that I initially wanted to delve into, but decided against because the first post seemed so focused on one particular aspect of the larger issues at hand.