logo design

BichonBistro

@animatosoor Thanks again for your help! I am getting ready to try a line-drawing draw-over of the bichons and changing the w to a smaller, curvy one (I had hoped it would read as a "collar"/W).

I have always heard that logos require vector art, but I never got beyond the only thing I really needed from Illustrator prior to later versions of Photoshop: creating text on a curved path...

It looks like there is a function in Adobe Illustrator CS5 (my current version) called "live trace" that may allow me to trace over the drawing I import from Procreate. I am hoping Illustrator drawing in CS5 is not what I remember from my 2000 version (some wacky curving bars with dots on the end that needed to be manipulated)! I only bought it because it was part of the suite with indesign, which I needed to convert from quark.

First things first--get a simpler line drawing of the bichons, keep the panic level down by thinking about Illustrator/vector draw-over tomorrow:face_with_open_mouth_cold_sweat:

Thanks so much!

BichonBistro

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Erin.Cortese

@BichonBistro I think you have a lot of workable ideas here, they just need to be simplified. I hope you don't mind I did a quick draw over. I traced your business card as well as your logo concepts, and just moved some things around. If you can draw something simple in Procreate, Illustrator's live paint could probably redraw it in vector just fine. If not, there is also the pen and pencil tool. As long as you can get them something vector, I think you got this.

I had no fonts to work with in Procreate, so I just did a rough draw. The dogs don't look so great identical, but I think you just need some small changes between them, like a paw hanging lower or something.

BichonBistro

@Erin-Cortese wow, Erin! I wish I were as quick with Draw-overs! My initial reaction was ‘that’s a pretty cute Bichon for such quick turn-around” relieved to read that you traced my business card

Can you educate me here? I know simple is better. So translating that to the Oval, we have 3 visual elements aside from type, right? The Oval, the bichons, the scale?

In the 2nd one, it is reduced to the scale and the bichons, correct?

In the one above with the breeder as the scale standing on the pillar of justice, we have 3 elements, correct?

So is there a general rule that 2 wins over 3 or is it impossible to generalize like that?

I really like the way the Bichon is emphasized here by basically a head shot.
I see what you are saying about varying one in some way.

Questions:

Because the Bichon body profile is a big thing in terms of illustrating balance & proportion, is it possible to combine this standing Bichon with the head shot? My gut tells me that will look odd—what do you think?
I put the paw on the top of the scale as a way to differentiate that we ARE talking dogs here, not law, but do you think it’s too cliché? If not, is the size ok?
Please tell me the illustrator pen tool in cs5 is not the one I remember from 2000...I basically put Illustrator in the same category as perspective: neither are friends with my brain

Even if I can’t get something in vector format, I will feel better at least being able to tell my breeder that I got a few preliminary sketches for her friend to take to a graphic designer.

Thanks so much for this help, I really appreciate it.

Erin.Cortese

@BichonBistro

As far as a general rule with number of elements, I think it would be to difficult to break it down in that way, but if I did it would be less is more. For balance, if things are too symmetrical they often will not communicate as well. That’s why the symmetrical Bichons I did do not look very good. If there were slight differences between them, it would communicate the idea of the Bichons clearer and quicker. The logos with the breeder as the scale are visual overload, it is just too much for the eye to process. Also, the Bichon you draw looks really good and could very easily be broken down to basic line work for a logo.

For your other questions:

I do not think the standing Bichon would work in the current designs you have, but if the body is important, it may be worth trying out a different design with only the one Bichon and the scales used differently?
This one is tough to answer because it really depends on the audience. If you are unsure and it is not an option to speak directly to the client, it might be good to do a few options that go in different directions. Just rough, not polished. If you haven’t already, Google “dog breeder logos” and you will get a bunch of results that will hopefully inspire some ideas. Maybe the Bichon is the main part of the logo, and the scales are worked in more subtly? Or vice versa. Here are a couple I took from google..

Maybe you could put scales in place of the mountain?

Maybe you could have the dog on the left looking at the scales on the right?

Lol! Nope. The pen tool has come a very long way. Still, the live paint or pencil may be easier options. I have never used my Apple Pencil in Illustrator, but I imagine it would be a lot like Procreate.

APHOTICMOTH

My rough idea for simplifying, but showing balance.

The blind lady of justice holds the scales, so would that work with the pup? Makes it balanced and leaves a nice spot for text.

I think the sub text isn't so much needed if the scales show balance already, and if the scales aren't balanced then the sub text seems false.

Could make the scales prettier to add some flair.

Just an idea, I hope this isn't rude.

BichonBistro

@Erin-Cortese Thanks so much for the education Erin. I have turned down logo design in the past because I knew I didn’t have the skills, but I was unwilling to say no to a friend this time. Oh what a lesson this has been! “Just Say No to Logos”

Those logos are REALLY good—I will try to come up with a sketch that features the standing Bichon, which might work better on the ‘pillar of justice’ icon, but she is so wedded to the scale, I will have to come up with something that features that.
I can easily show the scale with & without paw, as I drew that as a separate layer. Bichon fanciers tend to favor “cute”, so I could see this going either way.

I wish I could think of a way to Illustrate just the bottom of the scale, with front feet on one side of scale, rear on other side, without losing the iconic nature of scales of justice. The dog as the focus in the Rocky Mountain logo is very appealing and the tag lines “perfect Balance on a Perfect scale’ could work as the semicircle above the standing Bichon. I am mulling this one and looking for scale of justice icons that might work better than what I have.

I don’t have AI on my iPad, just cs5 on Mac. I will check out the illustrator app if it doesn’t require a subscription. I will have to bite the AI bullet or refer her to someone else to refine/implement the logo of her choice.

Thanks again for all your help!

BichonBistro

@CLCanadyArts Hi Cassandra, thanks for another idea—you are not rude at all to offer suggestions! The “blind” option would probably not appeal because one of the most important features of the breed is expressive eyes, but a blindfold might be acceptable, as it doesn’t suggest what breeders call a “fault” (any unhealthy trait like cataracts).

I tend to agree with you on the unbalanced scale not really reinforcing the “balance” concept illustrated in the Bichon and subtext “perfect Balance”, but the client (the friend of my friend who I am really doing this for) was very attached to the idea of the tipped scale depicted in her “Caffe o Law” logo in our initial discussions. Perhaps she will change her mind when she sees alternatives.

This is a concept that did not occur to me, so thank you!

APHOTICMOTH

@BichonBistro You're welcome.

I didn't mean the dog would be blind, it's just the name of the statues. She holds the scales rather than it being on a base. Would have probably been better just to say, hanging scales. Sorry.

alt text

Can't wait to see what you come up with!

APHOTICMOTH

@CLCanadyArts Hmm had another thought. Shes a breeder, so maybe a small young puppy in each side? Might be overkill.

BichonBistro

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BichonBistro

@Erin-Cortese @animatosoor @CLCanadyArts thanks for all your input on this task. This is so tedious and it’s just at the sketch stage

So I didn’t have time to sketch the head holding scales of justice yet @CLCanadyArts but if you think it’s best to have another design concept, I am going to do that next Sunday (company this week).

I wasn’t able to think of a way to use the scales in a manner similar to the Rocky Mountain Griffons logo @Erin-Cortese , so I put a standing Bichon on the pillar of justice with & without tag line.

Since an exaggerated head tilt is a thing bichons do when they are communicating, I incorporated that as the contrast between the two bichons on the scale.

Questions:

Which of these options is feasible to present to the breeder and how many options should generally be offered?
I really don’t want to research fonts and go through the tedium of figuring out kerning and placement of type on a path until I know the direction she wants to go.
Is it reasonable to expect a person to decide on a concept when type hasn’t been fully fleshed out? (I know—she’s a hobby breeder, not Nike, but I don’t want to be too unprofessional about it)

Thanks again to you all. I am going to LOGOff for the night

APHOTICMOTH

When doing logo designs, giving many concepts for review is always good, including multiple font styles. Never know what will jump out at them (my font was bad, was just a rough idea to give a concept)

#1 is nice, really looks like a show dog up on the podium like that. Fancy classy dog, classy podium, not so classy fon't, not that script would be good. Maybe play with it. All the black is really heavy. Could try to break it up a bit artistically.

#2 a lot of dead space between the dog and text.

The tail base clashes with the rest of the look of the dog, you also don't really see the base of their tail like that. Could just erase erase a bi o jive it a fuller look.

Played with it to show you what I mean. Just thoughts. It's almost exactly the same height.

APHOTICMOTH

@CLCanadyArts Wow, look at those typos. You get the idea though. I'll proof-read more. Haha.

animatosoor

@BichonBistro It looks like your work is coming along nicely! I'm glad the others (@Erin-Cortese and @CLCanadyArts) have weighed in as well. I understand @Erin-Cortese provided the Bichon line drawings traced from your business card - and they are amazing! Would you still be giving the linework a shot on your own as well, to depict the two Bichons on the weighing scale? It would be great to see your personal take on it too, not only in terms of the cute Bichon head tilt, but to see how you would interpret the linework.

Again, it looks like it's progressing well, so good on you.

Also, off-topic: your sense of humour comes across in your posts, and it's quite sweet, hahah!

BichonBistro

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BichonBistro

@CLCanadyArts yes, I definitely got the idea and love it!

Erin.Cortese

@BichonBistro Your Bichons are adorable and have really expressive faces, I think you did a great job!

It’s not as unusual as you might think for artists to find themselves in this situation, so don’t be too hard on yourself. I spent most of my early career in cold sweats wondering if I could actually pull off the work I committed to. I always did in the end, and I became better because of it. Now I have to go through it all over again with illustration lol.

Again if you have any technical questions about vectors, type, or otherwise, don’t hesitate to ask.

animatosoor

@BichonBistro said in HELP! I committed to a logo design and I am in a cold sweat:

@animatosoor I am so glad you got me from the ice-cold sweat stage to semi-thawed ability to move forward stage with your first reply!
I did give the line drawings of the two bichons my take (I tend to overdo and even with a heavier brush, they always come out too thin), but I basically traced my business card too—that’s my Bichon Zippy from the card I painted. I think the breeder will want me to work from photos of her dog/puppy.
Since we both traced my card, there’s not that much difference, although I think her linework reads much better. I just have too light a touch and don’t leave enough blank space for the eye to fill in.

Aw, I was happy to chip in! I think your take on the Bichons looks great. I've never used Procreate before, so I am unable to help there. I'm just wondering, though, what software are you planning to do the finals in? Is it going to be Illustrator after all? If the pen tool on there is scary to you - I understand it is to many :face_savouring_delicious_food: - you could use the pencil tool on there and simply draw out your vector shapes. I was wondering if you had a particular platform in mind to execute the finals.

@BichonBistro said in HELP! I committed to a logo design and I am in a cold sweat:

I do have to laugh about what I got myself into here or I might cry!

Hahah! Oh I hear you, and I'm really glad we could all help in some way. I've felt like simultaneously laughing and crying through certain projects, so I hear you loud and clear. XD

BichonBistro

@Erin-Cortese aw thanks Erin, I still think your trace results are better than mine! But thank you for the compliment ️

I am sure I will have questions about vectors after I look into that (can’t do that til next Monday though).

With regard to type, my small business has been greeting cards for the bichon market and whenever I do a design, type selection has been more by determining if the font communicates the sentiment and goes with my image, so I have never applied any “science” to it—it’s more intuitive, like which line weight and character pairs best (and is not too expensive) with the image and message.

Logo design feels VERY different.
Questions:

I was thinking thinking a font for JustUs should be more along the lines of a formal font, not necessarily serif, but definitely not decorative in any way (e.g., some of the fonts I have used in my work lik chic hand, danielle, kidwriting, etc. would definitely not be appropriate).
For line weight, what factors into the decision for the company name vs. tag line?
For this particular logo, I am not sure how color could be incorporated if the client doesn’t like black and white. The dog is the focus, so that seems where there should be color, if any. With watercolor, white is not white, but digitally, especially from what I recall of vector art, I don’t really know how to incorporate color on a white dog (other than the dog’s ). I’m not crazy about the treatments I have seen because most end up not looking much like bichons.

So you’re transitioning from graphic design to illustration? Honestly, I think graphic design (and stylized illustration) are very difficult. I think you will be able to avoid the cold sweats!

Thanks for all your help—I will have more questions next week I am sure